HISTORICAL WOC RESULTS?

[housewife]

I agree, running in control is key. But if you live in britain you are generally speaking not blessed with as much technical terrain on the doorstep as other countries so whereas a scandi can orienteer when running at 95% max pace a brit can maybe only orienteer well when running at 85% running pace. So the key in britain is to be abke to run as fast as possible, in order to be able to run within yourself in tricky areas and still do well. The problem seems to be being disciplined enough to run at map reading pace...

Other things that could be changed to improve gb performances is making longs long enough. Overplanning is preferable to underplanning. Gb also.has to get itself out of the rut that seems to be the current sprint planning style. Both the jk and british sprint races were mini control picks. Whilst this is no unpleasant torienteering it is nothing like woc sprints which havemuch more in the way of long legs with genuine route choice.

[EddieH]

Who is 229? He/she seems very sure of themself. I know who BigJon is and I know his record. Maybe 229 has an equally good pedigree, maybe not.

However it seems utterly clear to me that Thiery prooves that a lot of didactic comments about specific running times does not apply to him.

BigJon's "SPEED WITHOUT CONTROL IS NOTHING" is completely self evident even though so many people don't seem to have realised it, mainly I suspect because they simply do not believe that they have the ability to run fast and accurately.

[awk]

However it seems utterly clear to me that Thiery prooves that a lot of didactic comments about specific running times does not apply to him.

I disagree. I think his running ability supports exactly the opposite.

BigJon's "SPEED WITHOUT CONTROL IS NOTHING" is completely self evident even though so many people don't seem to have realised it, mainly I suspect because they simply do not believe that they have the ability to run fast and accurately.

And at no stage has there been any argument against that as far as I can see, but in order to run at speed with control, you have to have the speed!

Your body will actually adapt to a hell of a lot of stress if you give it enough recovery!!! It's quite amazing!

My comments specifically referred to young people whilst growing. I'm dredging my memory banks (and there may well be more recent material that now argues to the contrary), but I'm pretty sure that you can overload them (Osgood-Schlatter?). It may also be my incorrect use of modern terminology. To me, training without sufficient recovery, leads to an athlete suffering from overtraining. Apologies if not using the correct words.

[DIDSCO]

Awk > excellent comment, best advice to any junior + true in most sports. I'd also throw in the aim for technical perfection and nothing less.

Harry > Depends how you define over-training syndrome, trust me I know.

Housewife > don't agree with you, maybe at national level but at international level you can't make up for a poor technique with greater speed. You've got to have the whole package. The development of top level football in recent years illustrates this perfectly.

[229]

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[NeilC]

There are numerous technical camps for juniors, but very little guidance on the physical training which needs to be done, and is being done by others.

So you don't think much of the physical training plan that Elle Baker sets up and e-mails on a weekly basis to JWOC and other squad members?

[NeilC]

british sprint races were mini control picks. Whilst this is no unpleasant torienteering it is nothing like woc sprints which havemuch more in the way of long legs with genuine route choice.

There were at least two very significant long route choice legs at the British Sprints
check out FA1 at
http://www.southdowns-orienteers.org.uk/routegadget/cgi-bin/reitti.cgi?act=map&id=115&kieli=

[Scott]

the biggest gap currently in our system is the lack of physical training for juniors.

I think you are probably right to identify a gap there, and as you said earlier in the thread, this is partly because many (but certainly not all) orienteering coaches are themselves much more knowledgeable about coaching orienteering technique than they are about coaching running.

To be fair, I think that this gap has been recognised and efforts are being made to address it, including the new "running content" that will be included in the UKCC L3 course (as madmike mentioned above), and also through the work that Elle Baker has been doing with the older (18s and 20s) juniors over the last year - both helping them to develop individual training plans, and actually specifying twice-weekly threshold sessions for them to do.

[DIDSCO]

229 > are our JWOC runners less fit than others? wheres the evidence? Those British lads that came to Gothenburg for JWOC 3 years ago were in great shape, I know because I had the pleasure of training with them. One or two them got very good results, the ones that didn't made mistakes.
In the junior years priority should be on technique based training camps, as many as possible with the right coaches leading/planning the sessions. The physical training coaching of juniors should be very individual based - taking in to account the physical development of each individual and their previous level of training/+ type of training. It should be also structured on the cautious side, as AWK suggests, with the focus upon building up a strong base for when the athlete's body is fully developed with the long term aim of producing a top level senior. No quick fixes.

[Strider]

If you actually go back to my original post you will see that it wasn't talking about seniors and their fitness levels or technical ability at all. Rather that at junior levels physical training is often started to far too late and our JWOC team turns up much less fit than other countries.

I said that the biggest gap currently in our system is the lack of physical training for juniors. There are numerous technical camps for juniors, but very little guidance on the physical training which needs to be done, and is being done by others.

Having been involved with the physical development of the GB juniors for the past five years, I would agree with 229 to a certain extent, but only from a historical perspective. When I started working with the juniors, Gareth Candy had just begun his work with the then Start Squad and, at this stage, I was surprised at the lack of structure to many of the athlete's training. There was an undoubted shortfall in their knowledge and experience at this time and those who were following well designed, periodised programmes were the exception rather than the rule. The focus at this time was the development of their technical skills rather than their physical.

However much has changed in the past five years, with both Gareth, formally, and Sarah Hague, latterly, driving a gradual revolution in the approach to the juniors' physical education. The current juniors involved in talent camps and squads are now showing a greater level of understanding in their programmes and those coming through have begun to develop a much improved physical basis on which to develop their orienteering prowess.

Much more time is being devoted to this by the coaching teams, both at the traditional half term weekend and summer camps, with the emphasis very much on a gradual, progressive move forward in their training competence. Undoubtedly, other supporting initiatives that have been put in place, such as club talent squads and the elite programmes at Sheffield and Edinburgh, have also helped to drive this transformation.

Over the past three years, I've assisted in helping those in the Talent squad, and those on the periphery of this, in designing individual fitness programmes and it is heartening to see that, gradually, year on year, more of the juniors are arriving at camps with both a greater theoretical and practical understanding of what they need to do in order to become fitter, stronger orienteers. The general standard is rising and those whose fitness is lacking are becoming the minority, but even they are very aware that they need to attend to this shortfall if they are to be competing on a par with their peers on a national and/or international stage. It is my strong belief that we are moving in the right direction

[awk]

I think one thing we have to watch when talking about JWOC is the age of the athlete. JWOC is aimed at 20 year olds. We sometimes take athletes who are somewhat younger than that. They won't have (and in my eyes shouldn't have) the training under their belt to be competitive at that level - it's simply too soon after the growth spurt for them to have built up sufficiently. I'm sure most people (especially selectors and coaches!) are aware of that, but thought it worth at least acknowledging.

What I do think on the junior training front is that junior training, in general, emphasises building to apply technique at speed and under competitive stress; that doesn't need to be done using longer distances. Endurance can be extended later, but it's no point being able to run a long way if you can't run fast enough and apply the technique fast enough.

[frostbite]

We were originally talking about the development of juniors

No we weren't. This thread is about the performance of our senior team at WOC 2011,and whether or not it measured up to the BOF targets.

In the course of the debate you legitimately introduced the topic of junior fitness, but you also included this statement -

If you can't run a 15min 5km, then you aint going to do much in the men's, no matter how clean you are.

Which was followed up by this

I have always held the view that the ability to run sub 30 mins for 10k is what you will need to challenge for WOC podiums regardless of your technical ability, or ability to perform under pressure.

I don't think you really intended to set a target, but that is what it sounded like. Much of what has been written since has been to criticise the use of road/track running speed as a measure of orienteering ability - and to point out which orienteers have achieved podium places without being up to your standards. An understandable response, I think.

at junior levels physical training is often started to far too late and our JWOC team turns up much less fit than other countries

This may be true. I wouldn't know, but Didsco and others disagree with you. Where is your evidence? One of our JWOC team has a 15:18 5k to his name this year. Is he fit enough? I doubt the others are up to the same standard (or where to find their track times) but I wonder how many of them would say fitness is the main limitation on their performance. I guess they all have their srengths and weaknesses and these need to be addressed individually.

[Tessa]

So what we are all trying to say is that to be the very very best you need to run really really fast, but what may be stopping GB athletes reach their potential (whether that be podium, top 10s, 30s, whatever) in the main races of the season is more likely to be technique or psychological factors like performing under pressure??

So the conclusion is that we need to keep training all three, physical, technical and mental. On we go then.

[graeme]

So keep training then: I'll bet you're glad nopesport has helped you with that one. I can't imagine how you'd have figured it out for yourself

Moving to Edinburgh could help too

[andypat]

Dont forget about competing either!

I dont know the answer to this, but do our top home based athletes get the same level of top competition as those based elsewhere? For example Murray Strain has had a pretty high level of performance in domestic sprints for the past couple of years, but I suspect that he didnt come up against many of the top 20 finishers in the WOC sprint final (with the possible exception of the PWT in Perth) during that period.

Are there other big events out there that our top athletes should be getting supported to attend but arent?