WOC in the future

[IanD]

What's wrong with a mixed sprint relay as an addition to the programme? Which bit don't you like?

Sprint - well I understand and perhaps share the view that classic forest is better, but world class sprint still requires formidable fitness and decision-making-at-speed talents. Definitely not to be sneezed at.

Relay - many people actually get more of a kick from running in a team than as an individual, and from the parochial GBR point of view, many of our best results have been in relays.

Mixed - makes sense to me, many nations have one but not three top class women; this will give them a meaningful chance in a relay. It will still be boys against boys and girls against girls on individual laps.

[Gross]

It will still be boys against boys and girls against girls on individual laps.

So at the end of each leg they'll stop & wait for everyone to finish before starting again?

[Kitch]

Which bit don't you like?

mixed - how many serious sports/competitions do mixed ? Men and women have significantly different levels of ability, we are not the same. Competitive sport acknowledges this.
sprint - there is already a sprint race
relay - there is already a relay race

put it all together and what have you got ?
a mixed sprint relay
It may not only be a laughable load of piss but also a dangerous step towards the scrapping of a proper forest relay.

fisrt they will run MSR
then someone will say - "mixed, thats a bit weird, no serious sport does mixed"
So they'll say " yeah mixed is weird, we'll make it a mens and a womens SR"
and they will run that for a year or two
then someone will say " do we reallly need two relays?"
and they'll say " good point, we'll scrap the forest relay"

[IanD]

Well, I did say as an addition. I'd hate to see the forest relay scrapped.

Very few sports have the potential for a mixed gender team; as you rightly imply they have different levels of physique (your word was ability, you may get some flack for that!). A mixed gender adult football team would be a nonsense. On the other hand, equestrian sports don't separate the boys and girls even in individual competition.

In a relay, where people compete individually and consecutively, the different physical attributes are not a show-stopper. The women's laps could be shorter than the men's laps, I guess both planned for the same leading times.

Orienteering is one of the few sports where men and women routinely compete head-to-head, just go to any colour-coded event. I see no reason why this shouldn't be reflected in a relay.

[graeme]

an addition to the programme? Which bit don't you like?

Even the WOC runners aren't superhuman. Some will run one relay, some will run the other. The WOC relay should have all the best runners from each country racing against each other. I don't like the bit where they lost that idea.

[Gross]

Orienteering is one of the few sports where men and women routinely compete head-to-head, just go to any colour-coded event. I see no reason why this shouldn't be reflected in a relay.

Go to any colour coded event & you get a bunch of punters out for a Sunday excersie... go to a WOC and you get some of the World's top elite athletes of any sport... and the Elite Men & Elite Women do not compete head to head... if they did the women wouldn't even qualify for the qualifying

[Arnold]

I find it amazing quite how much resistance to change there is in orienteering, including on Nopesport.

Traditional long distance, individual start, forest orienteering is on a pretty fast decline in particular in the UK. Yes Silver Howe might have been great, but if you look at "Badge Event" attendances they have shrunk by 50% or more over the past 10 years and the trend continues to go down. So whether Kitch likes it or not, if we don't innovate orienteering will shrink into insignificance leaving less for everyone.

I agree we don't want to lose the heart and soul of the sport but for me that's "navigation at speed" not "a tough slog through empty countryside"...and I think the proposals do a pretty good job - the chasing start may be the exception but in my view it's worth a shot, and better than the alternative of a mass start.

Re the mixed sprint relay, obviously relays make for the most exciting viewing, so that's why they wanted a second one. And there are other sports experimenting with it too, eg Biathlon.

And with multiple disciplines the best orienteers won't be able to run in all of them anyway (Simone excepted) so that's the tradeoff you have to accept with more races (which all the nations want because more races = more chances of doing well = more funding!)

[Kitch]

On what do you base the idea that "innovation" will stem the fall in attendance ?

You note that attendance continues to fall,
this inspite of "innovation" So it seems to me that a far more logical conclusion would be that "innovation " is causing the fall off in badge event attendance. Interesting that you quote 10 year period. Its 10 years since the first WOC sprint competition.

You are right - traditional long distance individual start orienteering is declining - is this from lack of demand or lack of supply ?
There is basically no supply, so how would we know about the demand ? - even blodslitet was half an hour short.
About the only proper length race this year has been the WOC selections, which was planned by people who know what good orienteers are capable of.

If the heart and soul of orienteering is navigating at speed that should include a tough slog through terrain - you just have to be fit enough. The best orienteers are.
The rest have no idea how fit the best are are and because they do not train hard they prefer to have shorter courses and to run round the streets or parks because its much less tiring for them.

Orienteering in the UK is dominated by over 40s competitors and as they get older and less fit and slower they are dragging the physical demands of the sport down. At the same time they are dragging the technical demands down - they like urban because they can run faster without being fitter and without having to run through terrain, which is too much like hard work. The technical ease means they can keep moving without having to think to much - they love it.

UK orienteering has never had an elite focus and this is becoming more and more the case.
You want to generate healthy numbers - that means kids,
You want kids - give them a challenge, show them something tough.
Kids want to be the best, kids want to conquer
The first ever time I went orienteering, at the age of 12, on a permanent course that my dad took me to, I decided I wanted to be British Champion. Kids think big.
Give kids something easy and they'll say "mnyah - whatever"

Innovation is good
Challenge is good
dumbing down - not good.
pretty much all the change to WOC format in recent years has been dumbing down, races get shorter, technical challenges get removed, all to try and capture a media / TV interest.

[kofols]

an addition to the programme? Which bit don't you like?

Even the WOC runners aren't superhuman. Some will run one relay, some will run the other. The WOC relay should have all the best runners from each country racing against each other. I don't like the bit where they lost that idea.

Someone could see this as segregation on best-good-bad runners. Who has the right to decide before the races who are the best runners from each country? National coach, media, previous results,... so we (spectators?) will agree that we are watching best runners racing against each other? We must accept that all runners who runs at WOC are worth somethnig and that we have the level as we have it. What is important is to be the best among those who are on the start. This year Simone missed the WOC and nobody has said that we didn't watch the best. WOC is not about racing best runners against each other. Normally in my eyes winner of World Cup has a bigger importance than WOC winner but if someone wants 5 medals than he should risk and try to run all. I would be against it only when the level of competitiveness will go down dramatically year by year in all disciplines. I suppose that intention of MSR is that new countries will push the level up and not down in next decade.

[graeme]

This year Simone missed the WOC and nobody has said that we didn't watch the best.

The best female orienteer in the world did not run at WOC this year.
The best male orienteer, a former sprint World Champion, did not contest the sprint.
The best British orienteer* didn't run an individual race in the forest.
So you didn't watch the best.

WOC is not about racing best runners against each other.

You have that right! But some of us think it should be.

* i.e. Scott, the one with the best position in a forest WOC.

[kofols]

The best female orienteer in the world did not run at WOC this year.
The best male orienteer, a former sprint World Champion, did not contest the sprint.
The best British orienteer* didn't run an individual race in the forest.
So you didn't watch the best.

If TG doesn't care about this why I should? About Simone, that is life. It is not static, it is dynamic. What I like about the WOC is mystery who will be the best and not who was/is the best no matter who is on starting list. It is nice that we want to have ideal situation but it happens rarely in any sport. As I said every orienteer deserve some respect for his/her achivements no matter on others. What I want to see is just a fair WOC race. Maybe fair WOC long qualification model would be just fine.

If we want to see all the best (present at WOC) in specific discipline than we should first rank all disciplines. As runners have their own preferences than I see only one solution and that is prize money. Give the 4x times bigger prize money for Sprint than for Long and you will have all the best in Sprint inlucluding TG.

[awk]

The technical ease means they can keep moving without having to think to much - they love it.

I agree with much of what you say, but not this! The reason I find urban enjoyable is the exact opposite: it regularly provides the technical interest and intensity that is so often lacking in forest events. No over-40 that I know of prefers events that are technically easier - rather the reverse!

What I'm interested to know though, is if the sport's move to urban orienteering is being driven by the older orienteers' desire for 'easy' races, why is it that my club's urban races have a much higher proportion of under-35s than we can get to forest-type events, and are actually one of our main avenues for recruiting that age group? Indeed, races like London also show that.

Also interesting to note that the vast majority of over-40s who do urban orienteering, apparently because it's 'easier', are also keen forest event runners. I suspect that the reason for this is that it's not because urban events are 'easier', but because they provide variety. I certainly pick and choose my events far more carefully nowadays.

[andypat]

The technical ease means they can keep moving without having to think to much - they love it.

I agree with much of what you say, but not this! The reason I find urban enjoyable is the exact opposite: it regularly provides the technical interest and intensity that is so often lacking in forest events.

Absolutely right Awk-as a moderate forest orienteer, I find that the challenge posed by the forest in terms of navigation is rarely coupled with the pressure of quick decision making.

Sprint and urban give me the challenge of making decisions at speed. I appreciate that superhumans such as Kitch get this type of challenge from forest orienteering as well, but some of us are not fast enough in terrain for this pressure to kick in.

[Darwin]

Lots of good stuff..

Agree with every word Kitch.

There is a demand for tough events - look at the growth of adventure racing, "Tough Guy" races, long fell events, ultra marathons etc, vs. the decline of orienteering.

I believe we have completely lost our way with all this urban mixed sprint, ultra corn maze malarkey - and trying to appeal to TV could be the final straw.

Every minority sport body wants to copy Biathlon as a model of (amazing) success, but the changes made there - specifically the introduction of sprint, mass start and pursuit, simply don't equate to similar changes to Orienteering. The essence of that sport, fast ski-ing and pressure shooting when in oxygen debt, has been left untouched.

By the way if you don't follow Biathlon (On Eurosport) I reccommend that you do - it's a great spectator sport.

[awk]

I find that the challenge posed by the forest in terms of navigation is rarely coupled with the pressure of quick decision making.
Sprint and urban give me the challenge of making decisions at speed. I appreciate that superhumans such as Kitch get this type of challenge from forest orienteering as well, but some of us are not fast enough in terrain for this pressure to kick in.

But I think that is down to the nature of the forests and the planning. A good quality area with a well planned course should give you just that, whether you are as fit as Kitch or otherwise.