Peter Palmer Relays

[Rookie]

SJC, that wasn't pedantic nit-picking, it's just common-sense, and awk does organise/plan events (think this weekend just gone). If you win something you win it. Fortunately it isn't a big problem since OD or SARUM didn't win the PP relays.

Congratulations to my club-mates for coming second at the Peter Palmer Relays and taking home the Joan George trophy, awesome guys.

Results by Trophy Class
Peter Palmer Trophy (PDF)
Joan George Trophy (PDF) - combined team age 90 or less updated 11/09/07
Norwich OC Aniversary Trophy (PDF) - small clubs trophy

All Teams (PDF) - combined results

The PP result link should point to the All Teams link, that is the PP Trophy results, all the teams ran the same set of courses.

It happened at BEOC middle, and I'm even guilty of falsely giving myself the M20 Midland Night title (Rose Hodkinson, I owe you a box of wine gums), we need to make sure we produce results by course (within the same start block), not class.

[awk]

preceded by fifty or sixty lines of pedantic nit-picking. No wonder it is so difficult to get poeple to organise events nowadays.

It's only nit-picking if you don't think it important. You obviously don't. Having worked in junior development for the bulk of my orienteering life, I think it very important.

The BAOC have proved one of the best organisers of events: both races they've put on have been excellent. However, this is one aspect aside from the organisation - Mr timeE mentions that it was discussed with others before the event, so it looks like BAOC simply implementing a previously agreed policy - that needs sorting out for future, and if one is not prepared to argue one's side of the case....

[Mr timE]

Have to come back to Awk on this one. In 2005 we produced one set of results and that was it and we then got stick for not showing teams in their various classes, the same happened in 2006 where the results do not mention the JG or Norwich results. That's why we split them out to try and show all the classes and put them into their categories, the 4th category was needed initially as some teams were both JG & Norwich, so which do you show them in? I still disagree about letting one team win all, but that is my perogative. I run a number of tag rugby festivals for schools every year and once they play the pool rounds they go into separate, Cup, Plate, Bowl & Medal knockouts which means we end up with 4 winners and 4 runners-up. Those kids then tell all the other kids that they won their competition and rugby becomes even more popular in schools. For us orienteers it is not about how the results are viewed on the BOF website, it is about those kids going back to their mates and saying 'yea' we won something, why don't you have a go at this great sport as well

We all know OD were 2nd overall in the PPR, it is in the results of the OPEN competition, but hopefully with the SLOW team being able to say they were also second in a category when they advertise in London it might be easier for them to get a team next year. Perhaps I should just remove the separate results for the PPR only category, or rename them as non-JG/Norwich teams? The next time we might just include the category in the team name and go back to producing just one set of results with a quick spreadsheet of team only placings for the JG & Norwich.

From a technical viewpoint it is very awkward to produce a second set of placings out of a standard database as you have to complete duplicate those teams that fall into more than one category, which means another database as card/BOF numbers are duplicated. The event is not big enough to warrant bespoke software. Then there's all the hassle of extra fifth leg runners, just look at the fun Michael F had last year trying to produce his results with them included, perhaps one of the reason clubs do not take it on easily.

When we next do the event we may have more time to design a separate report to run against the raw data, which is what we do for some of our adv races and Army Relays, but it is a lot more effort.

[Rookie]

Mr timE, I'm not wanting to criticise the event (which I wasn't at) because I'm sure it was great and I think the PP Relays are very important

Perhaps I should just remove the separate results for the PPR only category

Agree!
OK, I accept there might be technical reasons why having teams appearing in two classes isn't easy, feed this back to the software producers to correct for future releases.

next time we might just include the category in the team name

Perfect. People can scan down the results themselves to see where the catagory finishers were. Ideally the software should allow an extra column for catagory place, and be able to produce extra results pages for the two sub-catagories.

for the How Many Prizes can one Person/Team get argument. I think as many as they win, and I certainly would have thought that when I was 14-18. The rugby example isn't analogous, since teams are split into seperate groups and then don't compete outside them. If an M20 (a junior) wins the Elite middles, they'd get the open elite M21 title, are people saying they shouldn't get the M20 title and trophy as well becasue it is better to spread things around?

[awk]

We all know OD were 2nd overall in the PPR, it is in the results of the OPEN competition, but hopefully with the SLOW team being able to say they were also second in a category

The point is the Peter Palmer Trophy is the open category - that's the whole point to the Trophy. With the greatest respect to SLOW they didn't come second in any of the official categories. Third is still excellent, and a good selling point.

As you suggest, the solution is to either remove the non-JG/Norwich category, which isn't one of the competitions at the relay, or to simply go back to one set of results, with any teams eligible for JGT or NOR marked off. Personally, I prefer the latter as it provides the best picture of how the race turned out.

Incidentally, when you say "The 4th category was needed initially as some teams were both JG & Norwich, so which do you show them in?", the answer is both! If a small club has a handicap team in as well, then good luck to them, they are eligible for all three competitions!

I am absolutely delighted when you say: "The next time.....", as that sounds great for future PPRs.

[Mrs H]

Good God Andy - you can't half bang on about things!

Speaking as the mother of exactly half the HOC team which will be relegated from 3rd to 5th i'll just point out a couple of things. The team were all rather heartened to think they might end up on the podium and get a bar or chocolate (sadly it didn't happen as there were no third prizes) it was a small consolation as they knew it wasn't up to the standard of their glorious Harvester victory.

I was also about to make a lot of valuable capital in the local paper about the competition to spring board my new MADO season - which I will not now do incase some pedant spots it and has a go at me.

My club has been very instrumental in staging the PP over many years - I think i'll suggest they don't touch it with a barge pole in future - and I'd be amazed if BAOC do either.

I think all this arguing over who gets what rather undermines all the teams (and their adult helpers) who turn up without a realistic chance of winning anything - just to support the competition and savour the experience.

to be frank it looks greedy!

[NeilC]

I think all this arguing over who gets what rather undermines all the teams (and their adult helpers) who turn up without a realistic chance of winning anything - just to support the competition and savour the experience.

In my experience in working with Juinors from various sports very few turn up just to "support the event and savour the experience" most want to achieve something be it winning, beating SLOW or just not coming last.

The Harvester has gone done the road of defining how to share the trophies around and clearly the PP needs to do the same. Although personally I'm in the winner takes all camp I've no problem with the age handicap trophy being passed down should a handicap team win the main PP trophy. Is this a job for Junior or Rules group?

I'm afraid Mrs H that I find your comment about not wanting to get involved again because of issues surrounding the awarding of prizes a little sad. This is a great competition but one that is very difficult to organise. When the event was without a home a couple of years ago I looked into using my University (which lies adjacent to s suitable venue) as a base. The amount of health and safety bureacracy and resistance that I encountered was completely overwhelming. I guess BAOC can avoid some of this red tape and many thanks to them for doing this once again.

Hopefully next year clear guidance will exist as to who wins what and how the results should be presented and this forum can rightly concentrate on how good an event this continues to be.

[Jo]

I don't think anyone here is critiscing the organisers, who did a grand job in my opinion. I think what needs to be done is as NeilC says, for there to be set rules about the awarding of prizes, like in the Harvester, for organisers to follow.

I agree with AWK when he says, to encourage teams give prizes to more teams eg top 3,4,5 or 6 but then give them to who actually won them. I'm sure people wouldn't mind if the entry fee had been a little more - it was amazingly cheap but some chocolate, and perhaps a certificate like this year, doesn't really cost much.

But many thanks once again to BAOC and all the other helpers, I enjoyed my run and I know everyone in both our teams did too - a great experience for some on their 1st peter palmers, I'm sure they'll be coming again!

[awk]

Good God Andy - you can't half bang on about things!

Yes, well I'm in good company! If you believe something's important...so some more of what you might term banging on:

Speaking as the mother of exactly half the HOC team which will be relegated from 3rd to 5th i'll just point out a couple of things. The team were all rather heartened to think they might end up on the podium and get a bar or chocolate (sadly it didn't happen as there were no third prizes).

At least your children are included in the main competition results. And I continue to argue that the podium should go further down the list, and certainly include 5th.

I would also argue that prizes/awards should not be the responsibility of the event organisers unless it's 'their' competition. The YBT and FCC never depended on the organiser for the trophies and awards (although I don't know whether they do now).

I was also about to make a lot of valuable capital in the local paper about the competition to spring board my new MADO season - which I will not now do incase some pedant spots it and has a go at me.

Why not? Top 5 in the most important junior relay of the year is a great result. In the first PPR we made capital out of coming in the top 20!

I think all this arguing over who gets what rather undermines all the teams (and their adult helpers) who turn up without a realistic chance of winning anything - just to support the competition and savour the experience.
to be frank it looks greedy!

Why? I'm not arguing anything that benefits my club. Having TMed teams at the PPR who have come well near the back, I've no idea how this discussion undermines that support one bit. Rather the opposite, as I am arguing that the results should include not exclude, and that there should be some honesty in them. Also - whilst you have more "winners" with separate classes, you also have more coming last.

[Klebe]

[quote="NeilC"]
In my experience in working with Juinors from various sports very few turn up just to "support the event and savour the experience" most want to achieve something be it winning, beating SLOW or just not coming last.{quote}


In other sports maybe, but I think you will find that the PP is something a little bit special.

The whole experience of night (early morning) starts, collective sleeping arrangements etc adds an extra dimension. PP is more than just a sporting event, it is an experience and juniors will turn up to support it whether they can win or not

[NeilC]

In other sports maybe, but I think you will find that the PP is something a little bit special. The whole experience of night (early morning) starts, collective sleeping arrangements etc adds an extra dimension. PP is more than just a sporting event

Agree completely

it is an experience and juniors will turn up to support it whether they can win or not

Disagree. It's first and foremost a race and is treated as such by, I suspect, most teams - certainly the ones that I've gone up with. There is great banter at the event but along the usual lines "who's running your third lap", "how far are we behind team X", "Y is running their last lap - should be able to catch him/her". I've seen many, and had to comfort some, distraught after mispunching. The PP is a race with an associated (sleepover) party not vice versa.

[HOCOLITE]

Neil I disagree with you. Some juniors go to the PP hoping to win or get a placing others go to get valuable experience for the future. We have sent a minimum of two teams for about the last six years, those in the 'second team' are there to gain experience of night 'O' and to enjoy the experience and atmosphere of the PP, without any 'pressure' to win. A number of those move on to the first team but some for various reasons just gain from this one time experience.

I can quote one example of a lad who orienteered occassionally with the school and came along to PP not knowing anyone else in the team, he enjoyed it tremendously but did not become a regular due to his Music and Drama commitments. He did not give up on O though he turned out for the school at the schools champs and had the pleasure of being in the winning team several years later. He gained from the experience but did not go to the event to win!