Peter Palmer Relays

[awk]

It's nothing to do with the courses - it's to do with the format, with the weekend away aspect, with the issues of care etc.

[HOCOLITE]

but if an M12 can run a green, why can't an M10 do a yellow?

There should not have been any M10/W10's there but there were, that is unless some kids are running M10's illegally at Badge events.

Do SO always push the rules to the limit. It was them who put M18's on yellow in YBT, they certainly had M10's at PP's in Beverley and now it's M12's running Green. Will there be a restriction on who can run Green. In future years the green could easily be a 6+K TD4/5 and kids could be out of their depth and pushed beyond their physical capabilities.

[ifititches]

great result from the HOC teams, just sorry not to have been there to share the excitement of such a close finish this year. And they're all still eligible to run again next year, when PP relays returns to Sutton Park on 2nd weekend in September (already up on the WMOA website). Bring it on!

awk is right, the decision about the M/W 10s was made through a thorough discussion, between experienced PP team managers. Most juniors who come first as M/W 12s will get 8 bites at it during their junior career, as long as clubs come forward to host it each year, so there's plenty for a ten year old to look forward to, and the anticipateion makes it all the sweeter.

There's a huge gap in interests and needs between 10 year olds and 18 year olds, especially if they don't have siblings in the other age group, and the adults who do go along to supervise deserve some consideration for what the responsibility they're taking on too. There's always the exceptional 10 year old who'll disprove the rule, but making an exception puts everyone else in a really difficult position. There's lots of things you can do and get away with when you're 10 that an 18 year old can't do; make the most of being 10 whilst you can!

[*Carol*]

.... And they're all still eligible to run again next year.....

not me! tho i'm sure you could find a much better replacement for the orange

[HOCOLITE]

Carol I see your club is ASS OK are you no longer a Harlequin?

Brilliant run yesterday though, keep up the training and who knows where you'll be

[NeilC]

but if an M12 can run a green, why can't an M10 do a yellow?

The M12 in question can run greens but two years ago as a top year M10 he was disqualified whilst leading on Day 1 of the JK for forgetting to punch at the penultimate control. For a not inconsiderable time he was devastated and was emotionally not ready for that. The PP atmosphere is potentially much more stressful, so, for the sake of the child, there has to be a lower age limit. Being at a BOF meeting elsewhere I couldn't attend the event this year but had strongly suggested to our junior team manager that an official protest be made against any team that entered an M/W10 to ensure that the rule is enforced.

I'm pleased to say though that the boy recovered from that error and managed to win his next five JK runs. Still hasn't beaten his old man yet (though I try to run a different course whenever possible).

[ifititches]

*Carol *wrote

not me! tho i'm sure you could find a much better replacement for the orange

oops, sorry Carol. Sure we could find you a job as team manager though!

[Ancient Grouse]

Having looked at all the maps - nice of BAOC to give the spare ones away - I can't see any obvious reason why one of the two first halves should have been quicker. There is 100m difference in the straight line distance as given in the descriptions. A couple of the controls on one gaffle look a little easier - control 3 on the A course (thicket end by a path) looks easier than control 3 on the B (platform) for example.

The only other possibility is the leg where the courses transitioned from the gaffled first half to the common second half. On the Green (leg 6) I can't see any obvious difference other than the length of this leg. On the Light Green (leg 3) on one gaffle the straight line on the overprint goes through an OOB area, whereas the other gaffle has a line broken to avoid obscuring a small path.

Last year Robert Roalfe didn't gaffle these two legs and just had two alternates for legs 1 and 2. I suppose if the area supports TD5 then actually you could only gaffle TD4 controls between Light Green and Green - not a problem at Sandhurst though!

One observation I would have about the planning, having seen the maps, was that the Yellow and Orange courses seemed not to follow the guidelines. The yellow in particular seems quite difficult, with controls well away from line features and lots of decision points. There were some very fast times on this course, and I wasn't aware of any problems/complaints but did any teams have runners on this who were truly 'yellow' standard, e.g. M/W12B JM/W2?

[awk]

Do SO always push the rules to the limit?. It was them who put M18's on yellow in YBT, they certainly had M10's at PP's in Beverley and now it's M12's running Green.

I can't comment on Beverley, except to say that if that was the case SO are by no means the only offenders, but.....

Writing as instigator, rule writer and co-ordinator for the YBT at that time, there was NO pushing the rules to the limit when SO ran a group of totally novice M18s on the Yellow at the YBT final. Indeed, the rules were written specifically to include this sort of individual. These students had got hopelessly lost on an orange course (their originally intended course) on an introductory session only a week or two earlier and were on absolutely the right course for their ability. They did pick up maximum points, but only because the M10 who finished seconds behind them made an uncharacteristic 2-3 minute mistake.

Equally there is absolutely no rule pushing in asking an M12 to run Leg 6, if it's appropriate for them, and Jonathan proved it was. He ran a very similar time to what M14s run quite regularly at National Events, and Jonathan will be not only be an M14 in 4 months time, but a serious contender for top honours in that class (he was JK M12 Champion in his first year and 3rd in M14 at JIRC this year).

One of the problems we have in orienteering is this constant focus on the chronological age of juniors. It has NO relevance. What matters is their developmental age which, especially in a technical sport like orienteering, is often very different.

[Brizzle]

Do SO always push the rules to the limit. It was them who put M18's on yellow in YBT, they certainly had M10's at PP's in Beverley and now it's M12's running Green. Will there be a restriction on who can run Green. In future years the green could easily be a 6+K TD4/5 and kids could be out of their depth and pushed beyond their physical capabilities.

I have to say this post has really annoyed me, I feel as if Awk has sufficently answered this post but i still feel the need to say...The M18's at the YBT could not have coped with anything more than a yellow as they were complete novices, so are you saying they should not be able to compete! Also the M12 in question regularly runs green, so why should there be a restriction when he is perfectly capable and finished in an amazing time of 45mins, 10th on the green! Neither of these are "pushing any rules to the limit"!

[FatBoy]

I agree you have to let juniors run up - some juniors can cope and otherwise you may get some clubs unable to compete. I was by no means an outstanding orienteer but was running greens at 11 and browns by 14. Being in a small club I was struggling around short open relays from 9! The hardest day of the JK for me was Monday until I got to about 15!

As for whether 10's should be allowed in that's for parents to decide. I can't comment on that one. There's a balance somewhere between allowing kids out and keeping them safe and I wouldn't know where that was.

I thought Yellow was one course at YBT you could only have MW14- on? I'm not nit-picking but I'm in the process of writing some live screens for the first round on Cannock Chase and I'd really like to know if I've got it right!?

[Simon]

I thought Yellow was one course at YBT you could only have MW14- on? I'm not nit-picking but I'm in the process of writing some live screens for the first round on Cannock Chase and I'd really like to know if I've got it right!?

Yes, but those are new rules for this year. There have been modifications to the rules on who is eligible for each course.

[Guest]

The Yvette Baker Trophy Rules are now available on the BOF web site under Events / Guidelines.

The rule that only M/W14- could run on the Yellow course was put in place some years ago. The changes for this year are to cover the eligibility based on getting Gold standards at National and / or Regional events.

[HOCOLITE]

I was not concerned about Jonathan as I know he's a capable orienteer, it's the precedent, the worst possible thing is for kids to be flogging themselves and get out of their depth. Where possible we run kids out on a lower course than their normal in their early PP's so they are comfortable and don't feel stressed by the relay pressure. We also run a second team for youngsters to get experience where hopefully they don't feel pressure, but do get the PP experience. Despite having a number of youngsters with night experience we let a lad do night for first time because he wanted to try it. He finished and enjoyed it, next year it will be easier for him and maybe in two years he'll run in the first team.

[Brizzle]

Where possible we run kids out on a lower course than their normal in their early PP's

So like an 18 running orange then? Was it her first one?