White Rose - Post events comments

[gross2006]

The main reason behind my late arrival is an important factor too - At the Club Chairman's (Who may be seen as more important than the organiser(or thinks he is anyway)request We discussed various matters of importance, If the fault was the organisers,

Another guest talking crap.....

1. It is an individuals responsibility to get themselves to the start in plenty of time. Talking to a club chairman is not a genuine excuse. Official bus transportation breaking down is.

EBOR seem to have acted entirly fairly in this case.... the person didn't get to the start due to thier own inability to stop blethering.... they weren't a helper... original start time stands.

[Mrs H.]

Yes this is all getting histerical - guest's problem is obviously an internal matter as he is a member of EBOR - and speaking personally - if I was a member of EBOR I would have been embarrassed to admit to competing on both days at the white rose where many of my club colleagues were working so hard that they never got a run - and not have helped in some capacity!

I thought thoroughly enjoyed my courses, the campsite and the team score - I'm sure if I thought hard enough I could find something to complain about - but life is too short.

[FatBoy]

I'm not sure how WR did the starts but IMO balanced starts over 2 days should be done in 4 blocks - and you get either blocks 1&3, 2&4, 3&1 or 4&2. That way you get an earlier and a later and you get one extreme block and one "sensible" block. Balancing early with late isn't fair, particularly on the longer courses as you spend 2 days running around on your own while somebody with two middle starts gets lead into all the controls.

As for the White Rose - please remember it's only the White Rose. JK it is not. All this angst flying about I think I'll chill at PT next year! (You are doing it aren't you guys?)

[LostAgain]

I am not an appointed officer of the club, so this is my opinion.

I think that a number of posters have made reasonable complaints regarding their N/C status which is worthy of investigation during the cold light of day. These people should e-mail the relevant official and ask to be re-instated expalining their grievance.

In my experience, all of the EBOR team are friendly and have the interests of their fellow orienteers in mind when putting on the events. During the heat of the actual event, people are generally trying very hard to keep things flowing smoothly and may may not be as considerate as some would appear to have wanted. The team for the White Rose was blend of experienced and new members to these roles.

It's a shame that not all people are able to formulate an observation or complaint in a constructive manner. Too much destructive nonsense does nothing for our sport.

[Guest]

I'm not sure how WR did the starts but IMO balanced starts over 2 days should be done in 4 blocks - and you get either blocks 1&3, 2&4, 3&1 or 4&2. That way you get an earlier and a later and you get one extreme block and one "sensible" block. Balancing early with late isn't fair, particularly on the longer courses as you spend 2 days running around on your own while somebody with two middle starts gets lead into all the controls.

As for the White Rose - please remember it's only the White Rose. JK it is not. All this angst flying about I think I'll chill at PT next year! (You are doing it aren't you guys?)

From what you describe there would still be a small advantage in having starting blocks 4 & 2 rather than 3 & 1. I must say that as someone who often has the earliest starts I all too soon find myself being surrounded by other runners and led into controls. When I have a late start I more commonly find myself on my own. So perhaps the comparative advantage of late and early runs balances out ( at least for someone of my limited ability)

I rather agree with your conclusion that it is only the White Rose and these considerations should not come to dominate what was after all perfectly reasonable orienteering.

[mharky]

How does the JK balance the start times?

[neil m37]

How does the JK balance the start times?

From BOF rules appendix L

2.4 Preferred Start Times
2.4.1 Entrants should be allowed a choice of early/middle/late start times (for the JK this should apply to each day separately, e.g. an entrant may choose late starts on both days). Each entrant should then be allocated a start time at random within the appropriate band

Whether this is what actually happens is a different matter - but it would seem that BOF don't have a big issue with the balancing of start times. I'll make sure to ask for 2 lates next time I do the JK.

[Guest]

How does the JK balance the start times?

From BOF rules appendix L

2.4 Preferred Start Times
2.4.1 Entrants should be allowed a choice of early/middle/late start times (for the JK this should apply to each day separately, e.g. an entrant may choose late starts on both days). Each entrant should then be allocated a start time at random within the appropriate band

Whether this is what actually happens is a different matter - but it would seem that BOF don't have a big issue with the balancing of start times. I'll make sure to ask for 2 lates next time I do the JK.

and 2.4.2 reads:-
Note that the size of the bands need not be equal. if for example, 75% of the entrants choose the late band of a 4 hour start list then the late band can oddupu the last 3 hours.

Roll on the 10.30 late start!

[FatBoy]

We had a thread a while back about JK start times. I had allocated last start on Day 1 and first start on Day 2. Not a fair allocation! Start times were allocated by club not by requested start time block.

There is a slight advantage in my example of blocks 2&4 rather than 1&3 but you can't give everyone this disadvantagous first start. I feel my suggestion is the best way of doing this for a 2 day event (outside JK Elites).

[mharky]

how is that not a fair allocation, 1st and last starts seems to be the fairest of allocations

[FatBoy]

First start is disadvantagous because you're out on your own for the first part of the course, and obviously you have undergrowth to bash down.

Last start isn't as bad as first start by a long way but you are on your own for the second half (of a long course) and on a wet day at a big race (e.g. Brown Clee) you're slowed by mud on the paths and quagmires in the marshes.
The best start would be a late medium before the mud gets too bad but when there are lots of elephant tracks. Also plenty of competitors in the forest to show you where the flags are.

One of the other problems with allocating late/early particularly at the JK was you have significantly less rest than somebody with early/late. It's well known I didn't run JK day 1 but if I had I would've finished around 15:40, and started day 2 at I think it was just after 09:00. The clocks changed that weekend also, but that was the same for everbody!

[bendover]

i had first start on both days at the JK (requested). would have been much better to have a mid to late start on brown clee, but on cannock chase had no problem with an early start as it was so runnable.

[FatBoy]

I agree with you Ben - it was lovely being out first (and back first) on Cannock Chase. In principle though it's not a good draw (for anybody - not having a personal whinge).

[yt1]

1. It is an individuals responsibility to get themselves to the start in plenty of time. Talking to a club chairman is not a genuine excuse. Official bus transportation breaking down is.

EBOR seem to have acted entirly fairly in this case.... the person didn't get to the start due to thier own inability to stop blethering.... they weren't a helper... original start time stands.

Yes, this is all well and good, but it wasnt a csae of just standing and talking - at the chairmans request, we discussed various matters of importance - it was therefore his (who is above the organiser) fault i was late, and BOF rules state that if it is the fault of the oganiser thenthe start time WILL be changed. Even if it is not the fault of the organiser, start times may be changed. The club cannot make up their own rules, each event should be following those of BOF. In any case, for such an informal event, of no great importance, the club should be flexible anough to accommodate this. After all, the start time was changed at the start, by the friendly officials. It was only later that it was reversed, manually, not because of the rule, but because of revenge, or spite or call it what you will.
As another 'guest' reported, if the club are so keen on following their own rules so stringeblty, with no flexibility, then why dont they stick to their rules re. competitors out of bounds (as i too know of several who were - yes they were helpers, but this doesnt make them exempt) It is just another example of the one rule for us and another for them attitude, and of their inflexibility.

If the club want goodwill, and to promote themselves in a positive light then they should think about how they act in these circumstances. It would be just as easy for a great deal of bad publicity to be given.

[harry]

how does being out on your own affect it? surely it's all about orienteering mastery and you have to run the same course as everyone else. i love having the forest/course/race against the clock all to myself.

being on your own is only a disadvantage if you can't motivate yourself and need a head-to-head vibe or if you are planning to follow someone, which is of course, against the rules.