Junior Badge Scheme

[Mrs H.]

Yes but getting back to the badge thing - just imagine how exciting it would be if all M\W20s who got championship standard were automatically offered some total top grade coaching. not a bad selling line in freshers week - you've got 2 years to make it into the GB potential development squad or whatever you want to call it so you better sign up now - as gross and i historically already agreed - orienteering is a running sport primarily - lets poach the runners from other sports not lose the orienteers. you could kiss the start squad goodbye completely - give the juniors a chance to enjoy their sport free of pressure and really hot house some potential when there old enough to cope - the medals will roll in after a couple of years - think of all the great british orienteers who started late. what this means is that there is everything for the older juniors/young adults to play for - and those who don't make it will hopefully stay in the sport because they're still going to be bloody good.

[Neil Crickmore]

Remind me how this is so fundamentally different to what happens now? Top coaching is currently offered to those who perform well in major events. Are there many juniors that achieve championship status but don't make it onto tours or into the start squad? Tours and the squad are reselected each year and there is turnover year to year. It is possible to make it into a squad within a couple of years already.

If the incentive is to get championship standard in order to get top coaching then it is hardly pressure-free since it would require at least one top performance at the JK or British.

Of course there are great orienteers out there who started late, but also average orienteers who were turned into great ones by the system so many people want to knock.

[Mrs H.]

Because money is being wasted on young kids who are good navigators but simply can't run - they hold up in the junior ranks but are never going to live with the runners who learn how to navigate. these are the ones like Tessa Hill and Jo West who turn up in the last year of the start squad without having had any benefit from the coaching - unlike the much greater number who will be in for the first few years and then sink without trace - I know where i'd rather spend my money. anyway were talking about badge incentives here - unless a championship standard actually produces some benefit in it self is it really an incentive? that's what i'm asking.

[Guest88]

It's a nice idea from mrs.h that would help dispel any notion that the door isn't open to late starters to reach the highest level in orienteering, and would set a goal for them to aim at. Yes, think it would go down well in freshers week.

I do fear though, that championship standard is not the most scientific way of indicating who is good, e.g. easier to get within 25% on less technical area, depends on who is running etc. - also I can see that some fast runners might automatically qualify for free o-training holiday by following some hot-shot around.

On balance....not sure

[Jude]

I don't think we should knock the Start program, we have two juniors in the GB WOC team this year and Alison won the bronze for the classic at JWOC, this is a fantastic achievement GB juniors are probably the strongest they have ever been. This has to be partly because of the excellent training they recieve through Start and the team building that goes on.

Regional squads provide additional training for these youngsters and others who haven't made it into Start, however I do think that juniors who don't quite fit the mould do get by passed. Obviously those who enter the sport later need time to aquire the technical skills that those who have spent a few years in the Start or regional squads have already got, so are not on a level playing field when it comes to selection.

If funding were spread more widely perhaps we would not lose so many of these, definately the university clubs could do with more support.

Does the M/W5 scheme apply to 20s I thought it was M/W18-, if it doesn't then perhaps it should?

[Guest]

JM/W5L is for 18s and 20s as far as I recall

[Guest]

Neil Crickmore says "Top coaching is offered to all those who perform well in major events".
Since when?
First I've heard of it.
Most start prog don't.

[Becks]

Unfortunately the coaching below the start program is so variable between regions that juniors with real talent are in danger of slipping through the net. I'm sure these 500 pound grants going to individual 14 year olds (how many 14 year olds need 500 pound grants?!) would be far better going to squads.

There is no doubt the best are getting better but they're competing in a smaller and smaller field...Mrs H and myself have said it a billion times. Talented athletes producing the results can always find the cash to support them, from sponsors, local councils, clubs etc. But where do you get the money to get there if you'renot quite there yet?

Ranting aimlessly. Feel better though.

[Guest]

There are some fantastic orienteers in their early/mid 20s who started orienteering at uni, and would almost definitely be in the main squad if they had access to some coaching of the top standard, or perhaps a mentor of some sort. Potential GB squad members won't just come through the junior ranks - the selectors have to recognise this and perhaps remove the closed boundary that seems to surround the squad. Invite some of those who perform consistently well to a few training weekends - seniors and juniors - give them a taste of what to expect as a top-class elite.

if they run M20 will probably be either the only ones in it

As someone who did start orienteering regularly at uni I gave up with running M20 because there was no-one else on the courses, and started running M21S instead. It was the nearest badge-course to my age/ability that had decent numbers on it, which enabled me to look at my relative improvement over events. This was something that I felt was important as it helped keep the motivation there, as I crept closer to the top of the results lists. I can now (just about) run 21L, although lack of fitness lets me down over the longer distance. In my opinion, colour-coded (sorry district) are better for the uni newbie sort of person as you can run a course that suits your ability, then make the transition up as you improve and have the confidence to take on the next challenge. People don't want to be getting hopelessly lost on their first course, whatever age group they are, otherwise they'll get disillusioned with the sport.

[Mrs H.]

this'll sound like sour grapes but it is still a case in point. as a top year 14 young neville did well (2nd by 8 secs in JK etc) and got selected for Interland JHIs and world schools (one of only 2 boys to do so) He went to Laganlia and received a report so awful i could not recognise him from it which basically said he cant run, can't navigate and doesn't listen. well anyone who's seen neville knows he can run as for the other - surely if he is getting the results without being able to navigate then that means he has more potential not less I thought that was what they were going to teach him. He didn't make it onto the start squad yet beat all but one of them in points at the world schools. As a first year 16 he achieved championship standard by the JK with reative ease and was the only non-start squad boy at glenmore (all that means is that we have to pay - that's OK). My worry is that he might look at the squad and get a bit fed up and walk away from the sport. the saving grace is that he actually loves orienteering and most of his friends are in the sport. He is actually doing a bit of training now so is obviously still motivated. I just cant see that anyone can look at that bunch of boys and say in 2-4-10years time who will succeed - so why have to make the call - don't say finances - if we can pay so can others - keep the doors open!

[lilywhite]

Agree with a lot of what's being said here except

Because money is being wasted on young kids who are good navigators but simply can't run - they hold up in the junior ranks but are never going to live with the runners who learn how to navigate

It is possible to learn how to run! If you're a good navigator when you're an M/W14, you love orienteering, and you love being at the top of it , then with the right support you're likely to start training your tits off and become a good runner.

[graeme]

- also I can see that some fast runners might automatically qualify for free o-training holiday by following some hot-shot around.

...and since this type of person is exactly the type who would benefit most from learning to orienteer properly, and is most likely to drift off into other sports, that would be a good thing.

While I agree with Matt that you can "learn" to run (i.e. learn to train), you dont have to go on tour to do it - there's much more learning to navigate, and you do have to go to terrain for that. Good runners/inexperienced navigators will benefit most from a tour.

Regarding M20s - I disagree with the idea that novice M20s should be treated as juniors, I can't see why they shouldn't be treated as adult beginners, as they would be in other sports (except that provision for adult beginners is rubbish).

Graeme (ex-M21 student beginner, i.e. six months of M21C, M21B and red courses)

[rocky]

...and since this type of person is exactly the type who would benefit most from learning to orienteer properly, and is most likely to drift off into other sports, that would be a good thing.

Provided they are there because they want to improve, and can at least consider the possibility of representing at JWOC or WOC in the future.

I've been on tours with people who clearly had no aspirations of this sort and had got there by virtue of a few flukey results of the sort described: they were there for a free trip to....

[Rich]

<...and since this type of person is exactly the type who would benefit most from learning to orienteer properly, and is most likely to drift off into other sports, that would be a good thing.>


I have never come a cross a junior who can navigate perfectly yet, even the top juniors benefit from going on tours particularly to scandinavia. From what I have come across, the juniors that benefit most are the ones who have the least experience.

[Peter B]

Can I suggest (although this has probably already been suggested) that those juniors lower down the scale i.e. not those in national squads but regional and intra-regional squads need to get more support.
Now in a way, the Start Squad is a good thing, however having said that IT IS CORRUPTING OTHER JUNIORS FROM BEING ABLE TO PERFORM TO THEIR HIGHEST ABILITY. I BELIEVE THAT THERE IS A BIG GAP OPENING UP HERE AND IT WILL WIDEN - between the top juniors (i.e. those in the national squads and the best from regional squads) and everyone else. This is really down to Start Squads training those of already high ability to even higher levels - however on the other hand this doesnt make Start a bad thing, but because of it EVERYONE ELSE - EVEN SOME OF THOSE IN REGIONAL SQUADS ARE GETTING LEFT BEHIND. This is because those in regional squads and possibly others, (who would like to go further than where they are now) aren't being given any real oppertunity to be able to do that. Individual satisfaction is a major contributor here and possibly one of the reasons juniors are dropping out of the sport is because they aren't getting enough out of it - because the sport and the sporting bodies themselves aren't giving them any.
It would be unneccessary and impossible to get everyone up to the same level - not just from a practicalty scale but also for example funding as well. What is more realistic is by offering oppurtunites for improvement to everyone, in order to be able to raise each individual's objectives, ability and satisfaction to the full, and also being able to attract more juniors to the sport. From past experiences I have seen that juniors will benefit more and get more satisfaction out of, say a few days or a week in Scandinavia than somewhere in the lesser parts of Britain, (by lesser I mean those areas with less technical or challenging terrian.)