The problem I found though is that some trees were prominent but not dead, and hence prominent but not mapped. I came a cropper on one control because I saw the prominent live tree near the control circle, but not the prominent dead tree. That did not feel like an orienteering mistake.
Using your boulder example, it is more like marking only boulders that are prominent and made of granite.
Midland Championships Sun 28th Feb
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Re: Midland Championships Sun 28th Feb
Similar issue at the Scottish Champs as well. Here mature scots pine trees (within the pine forest) were marrked with green dots. Some seemed more distinct than others to me. Elsewhere equally distinct trees weren't marked.
Perhaps Big Jon would like to give us his rationale for including these on the map? I'm not sure either way myself. Unlike the Midland Champs area there are plenty of other features at Balmoral.
The use of these features for control sites is another issue. The first control on course 3 seemed a bit unfair to me. Nothing much to go on but accurate compass looking for a pine tree in a pine forest and no chance to see what constituted a mature tree beforehand.
I'm now hoping they do exactly the same at BOC 2018 to catch out everyone who didn't come to Scotland this weekend.
I should add that no criticism is intended; i just want to see what others think. The map is great and maybe Jon was enjoying his time on the Queen's estate so much that he got carried away?
Looking forward to my final BOC 2018 recce in the relay
Perhaps Big Jon would like to give us his rationale for including these on the map? I'm not sure either way myself. Unlike the Midland Champs area there are plenty of other features at Balmoral.
The use of these features for control sites is another issue. The first control on course 3 seemed a bit unfair to me. Nothing much to go on but accurate compass looking for a pine tree in a pine forest and no chance to see what constituted a mature tree beforehand.
I'm now hoping they do exactly the same at BOC 2018 to catch out everyone who didn't come to Scotland this weekend.
I should add that no criticism is intended; i just want to see what others think. The map is great and maybe Jon was enjoying his time on the Queen's estate so much that he got carried away?
Looking forward to my final BOC 2018 recce in the relay
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Homer - diehard
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Re: Midland Championships Sun 28th Feb
Trees show up quite clearly on google maps...
https://www.google.com/maps/@57.0228791 ... a=!3m1!1e3
and will do so on LIDAR.
[edit] For the avoidance of doubt, I don't think being visible from a satellite is a criterion from inclusion.
There aren't that many features near the red start (course 1-5), apart from "pine tree in pine wood", the alternatives (from RG) seem to be "boulder in boulder field" and "niche in broken ground". Later, many lost time looking for the smallest mapped crag in an area of crags.
For the mapper, obviously there has to be a cut-off between what's marked and what isn't. It's an arbitrary choice, and it shouldn't be for the runner to try to match that judgment. The "smallest mapped X in an area of Xs" is a poor control site - but sometimes you have to use poor control sites to make good legs. If you can't mapread to the correct feature, then the flag should be visible from a fair way away. FWIW I felt the planner got this right.
Notwithstanding, Balmoral was wonderful.
https://www.google.com/maps/@57.0228791 ... a=!3m1!1e3
and will do so on LIDAR.
[edit] For the avoidance of doubt, I don't think being visible from a satellite is a criterion from inclusion.
There aren't that many features near the red start (course 1-5), apart from "pine tree in pine wood", the alternatives (from RG) seem to be "boulder in boulder field" and "niche in broken ground". Later, many lost time looking for the smallest mapped crag in an area of crags.
For the mapper, obviously there has to be a cut-off between what's marked and what isn't. It's an arbitrary choice, and it shouldn't be for the runner to try to match that judgment. The "smallest mapped X in an area of Xs" is a poor control site - but sometimes you have to use poor control sites to make good legs. If you can't mapread to the correct feature, then the flag should be visible from a fair way away. FWIW I felt the planner got this right.
Notwithstanding, Balmoral was wonderful.
Last edited by graeme on Sun May 22, 2016 5:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.
WOC2024 Edinburgh
Test races at SprintScotland (Alloa/Falkirk) and Euromeeting (near Stirling).
Test races at SprintScotland (Alloa/Falkirk) and Euromeeting (near Stirling).
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graeme - god
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Re: Midland Championships Sun 28th Feb
I agree - it was great out there yesterday and the map overall was great. I've just made the same comment about the trees on the previous thread - looking back at the previous Balmoral map the trees are on that too (was thinking maybe the planner had asked for them to be on but seems not).
For me the key points were:
1. Consistency - I felt a bit unsure what was mapped and what was not - particularly control 229 was on what I would consider a very borderline distinct tree - assuming that was what it was intended to show)
2. Clarity - I think by definition the green dot in ISOM is definable and should be shown on the legend (it wasnt).
3. Fairness. Given that the first control on course 4 was a green dot (cd was tree) and there were no others on the straight line to it, and given (2) above I think there's maybe an issue of fairness as its not possible to know what you are looking for for your first control.
I'm not convinced by Graeme's not that many features argument, and the size of the crown from the air doesnt necessarily bear a good relation to the girth which is all you can see from below. On balance I'd take em off, but as Graeme says it the mapper's judgement that counts. If they stay on - at least add a definition to the legend please Jon.
For me the key points were:
1. Consistency - I felt a bit unsure what was mapped and what was not - particularly control 229 was on what I would consider a very borderline distinct tree - assuming that was what it was intended to show)
2. Clarity - I think by definition the green dot in ISOM is definable and should be shown on the legend (it wasnt).
3. Fairness. Given that the first control on course 4 was a green dot (cd was tree) and there were no others on the straight line to it, and given (2) above I think there's maybe an issue of fairness as its not possible to know what you are looking for for your first control.
I'm not convinced by Graeme's not that many features argument, and the size of the crown from the air doesnt necessarily bear a good relation to the girth which is all you can see from below. On balance I'd take em off, but as Graeme says it the mapper's judgement that counts. If they stay on - at least add a definition to the legend please Jon.
Orienteering - its no walk in the park
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