Are you looking forward to a Wilf's veggie chilli?

[mykind]

To look at all this another way, BOF and the hosting region / club(s) will be aiming to make a certain profit out of these events. Traders are a source of income, just like entry fees. If the traders aren't charged, or are charged less, the entry fees go up. So is everyone who is complaining on this thread basically implying they would prefer traders weren't charged, but that they would be happy to pay an extra £1 on their entry fee to make up the difference? I suspect not, because many people moaning on this thread are also moaning on other threads about entry fees. So what is the solution?

I see it a little differently. For me BO manage a membership dbase and charge a huge amount for this service,

I'm told that all the superfluous salaries are paid for by other income streams, I don't believe it.

I know that all the services I think are important are provided by volunteers on the committees / Groups.

I see that the volunteers (organising clubs) are being dictated to with respect to profit demands without shared risk. Now they are being told who can assist in providing the experience.

Me's thinks that something is going to break!

We can only hope that it breaks sooner rather than later.
I would imagine that the JK and BOC are a significant part of all the trader's income streams over a year. If they are to be replaced by large national concerns then they are likely to, at least, consider giving up the mobile business and I cannot see these large generalist businesses turning up to your local level C event on a wet Sunday morning unlike the tried and trusted vendors who have given us such excellent service over the years.
BO do not seem to grasp that they are there to provide what orienteers want not to generate profit.

Mike Hind

[andypat]

BO do not seem to grasp that they are there to provide what orienteers want not to generate profit.

Mike Hind

I understand the sentiment but not sure that your assumption that BO are in it for a profit is correct. With the changes to the membership fee/levy format, BO would have to pick up the shortfall from somewhere. I suspect that a lot of clubs are putting on activities rather than events to get around the flat rate levy and BOF might be struggling to keep afloat. I dont have any hard evidence for this but I suspect we'll see the outcome next AGM.

[Mrs H]

I know I am famously bad at sums but could someone please explain to me the difference in income to BOF of one trader at £1000 and 4 traders at £250?

[roadrunner]

With the changes to the membership fee/levy format, BO would have to pick up the shortfall from somewhere.

BO membership is around 10,000 so charging a trader £1000 at the JK and the British Champs brings in the equivalent of 20p a head on the membership fees. Is membership really that sensitive to cost? If so, then you'd have expected a massive increase when the fees were reduced a year or two back.

[AndyC]

I dread to think how long the queues will be if there is just one food trader....

One food trader doesn't always mean only one point of sale. It is possible if they've agreed exclusivity that the trader might either bring more than one van -or even invite a friend to share the opportunity.
That might well maximise their profit as well as provide a better service to the orienteers- and enhance the traders reputation.

[RanaldMacdonald]

I spoke to the good people of Podium Catering at the MDOC CSC heat at Irwell Valley yesterday. They had doubled their normal pitch bid for the JK and believed they had been accepted, going so far as to start recruiting staff, looking at accommodation and a refrigerated van. They were rightly disappointed to then be told they were no longer required. (I paraphrase and apologise for any misrepresentation of either side).

Yesterday I really enjoyed their chilli and rice in taco shell with guacamole, cheese and red cabbage. At larger events I could equally have gone for a pasta dish, bacon butty or burger and chips at other outlets - but at least I would have that choice.

Yesterday one could also get excellent cakes at very reasonable prices from the Junior Squad stall to fund their trip to Norway. Will they or local youth and village groups still be allowed? They create a lot of goodwill for the sport in areas where there might be grumblings about the number of cars on a quiet Sunday morning.

To return to one of the earlier points; for me this is an issue about showing loyalty (perhaps an unfashionable value for some) to the small traders who have supported us, and hopefully will continue to if they are still in business. Many of them come from outdoor activities backgrounds, including orienteering, and seek to make a living, if not a fortune, at providing us with the sort of food we want. Yes, British Orienteering may need to recoup the effects of the reduced membership fees but it seems to have chosen a route most likely to upset orienteers - our stomachs!

[RJ]

How can a business survive by relying on three days at the JK and two days at BOC for their trading? In fact, how can a business survive with a maximum of 52 trading days a year, by attending O events on a Sunday?

Methinks there is more to this question/problem than we are currently considering.

[Mrs H]

By having day jobs of course

[RichT]

I think the pertinent point is made by Ranald.

"Yesterday I really enjoyed their chilli and rice in taco shell with guacamole, cheese and red cabbage. At larger events I could equally have gone for a pasta dish, bacon butty or burger and chips at other outlets - but at least I would have that choice."

The concern is the variety of dishes on offer - especially for me in respect of chilli,, pasta and rice dishes. I'm not saying that a bacon and egg butty doesn't have its place but it has been good to refuel immediately after a hard race during a multi-day event on a non-burger option . . . and I'm not a great fan of baked potatoes either.

[Tatty]

They believed they had been accepted, going so far as to start recruiting staff, looking at accommodation and a refrigerated van. They were rightly disappointed to then be told they were no longer required. (I paraphrase and apologise for any misrepresentation of either side).

I spoke to Tom of Red Barron who echoed the above comments.

To have been led to believe they would be able to attend and at a late stage when staff, accommodation (which had been paid for) had been orgainised really is not on.

Interesting to note that at least one club refused to sign the new National agreement

[andypat]

With the changes to the membership fee/levy format, BO would have to pick up the shortfall from somewhere.

BO membership is around 10,000 so charging a trader £1000 at the JK and the British Champs brings in the equivalent of 20p a head on the membership fees. Is membership really that sensitive to cost? If so, then you'd have expected a massive increase when the fees were reduced a year or two back.

I'm not sure you understood the point I was trying to make. I'm not defending BOF just trying to capture the bigger picture which may very well be that BOF isnt making anough from the new member/levy system to get by and therefore has to generate more income from somewhere. people keep using the term profit wrt BOF but I am not sure this is an appropriate term - "income" might be closer to the mark.

Events sometimes generate a "surplus" but i suspect this only ever loosley equates to a "profit"

[Mrs H]

So as i asked before what difference does it make to BOF if they generate the same amount of money from one trader or half a dozen?

[andypat]

None I think, but I suspect thats not the premise on which BOF felt they could rely.

[Duncan]

My understanding is that British Orienteering have no "rule" as to whether they will only permit one vendor with exclusive rights, vs. multiple vendors with non-exclusive rights. They just put out a request for information to the traders, asking what they are selling (e.g. food menus), size of pitch, number of staff etc. and what price they are prepared to bid. It is up to the vendor how they respond, whether they say they'll pay e.g. £1000 but want exclusive rights, or will pay say £250 but happy to have competing traders (or maybe say they'd be happy with either). [Note I made those numbers up, don't know what figures are being quoted in practice...] British Orienteering then take all factors into account and decide what to do (e.g. balancing income generated, range of food, ability to sell to enough people etc.).

For JK it seems they have gone with a single food vendor, but like I say, I don't think that is the way it was always going to end up, nor how it might end up at other Partnership Agreement events. And I don't believe it is how it has ended up with clothing / equipment vendors at the JK (I think both Compass Point and Ultrasport will be there).

[Tatty]

It would be interesting to find out if Ultrasport and Compass Point had to tender for the event!