The format of the JK

[graeme]

people are running up on the classic too.

Not really.
For example only 19/47 doing the "Black middle" are then doing the "Black long". Most of them are running the distance they want to run on both days (i.e. over an hour).
Almost nobody wants to mix distances (except that bloke running M40+ at St.Ives and M21E at Penhale ).

[awk]

people are running up on the classic too.

Not really.
For example only 19/47 doing the "Black middle" are then doing the "Black long". Most of them are running the distance they want to run on both days (i.e. over an hour).
Almost nobody wants to mix distances (except that bloke running M40+ at St.Ives and M21E at Penhale ).

I think you have to be very careful how you ascribe motivation. Looking at the age profiles etc. of those running black middle, it might just as easily be because they want a race against the best over a distance they can enjoy as because they want to run for "over an hour" (and I suspect quite a lot of those runners will taking nothing like that length of time unless the course runs slow). Looking at the rest of the classes, most people are running 'to class' on both days.

I really don't see this mass migration to longer courses in search of longer running times that you see - I've still not worked out where all these hour long runners are in the Yorkshire middle distance races. Rather, the bulk of people are running to their recommended middle/long distances.

[pete.owens]

people are running up on the classic too.

Not really.
For example only 19/47 doing the "Black middle" are then doing the "Black long". Most of them are running the distance they want to run on both days (i.e. over an hour).

Looking at the entry list for Greythtwaite it appears that just about everyone is running the recommended courses for their age class. There are more courses on the long day so each course will have fewer runners. Black is recommended for five age classes (M18-40) for the middle but only for M21 on the long.

Only three runners are running up to black on middle race and all three have also entered the black long course.

[pete.owens]

* For example
M50 at a bog standard long race (e.g. CSC heat) guideline B says Blue course 56% of a Black course with an elite winning time of 67 mins. 67*56% = 37.5 mins
M50 at a standard middle race guideline C says Brown course 83% of a Black course with an elite winning time range of 30-35 mins. 30*83% = 25 mins, 35*83% = 29 mins
The long course for M50 is only ~ 30-50 % longer than a middle

But the CSC heat isn't typical - most courses are shorter than normally apply for long courses for the age group (M21s run brown).
The usual recommended course for M50 is short brown - 0.69*67 = 46 elite minutes, which IS significantly further than the 27 elite minute middle distance brown.

Also the key difference between middle & long is planning style rather than length with the middle emphasising sustained fine navigation rather than major route choice.

[gaw]

C we appear to have developed a hybrid. What ever happened to the art of planning long challenging legs?

Long Distance Orienteering (normal cross-country, often called “classic”)
 Emphasis on route choice

Middle Distance
 continuous map reading in the terrain, technical difficulty, a
relatively high density of controls, changes in direction and micro rather than macro
route choices.

I definitely agree. I would much prefer a good contrast between a proper middle on Saturday and classic on Sunday. I also much prefer a sprint to an urban. I don't go for the time spent out arguement, I'd much rather have great orienteering with variety. 60 minutes running round streets wrecks my legs and gives me a lot of dead running. I always really enjoy the Relays what ever team I end up in. So for me a middle distance on Saturday would be a definite improvement.

[graeme]

Middle Distance
continuous map reading in the terrain, technical difficulty, a relatively high density of controls, changes in direction and micro rather than macro route choices.

Good description of the planning at Cold Ash.

[Oldman]

Why do people keep wanting to change things? The format is fine as it is!
The double long is a unique challenge - don't spoil it by introducing piddling length middle courses!

[Gnitworp]

Middle Distance
continuous map reading in the terrain, technical difficulty, a relatively high density of controls, changes in direction and micro rather than macro route choices.

Good description of the planning at Cold Ash.

They'll never admit there is (and should be?) a lack of distinction between the 'disciplines' for non-elites however many hints we drop, graeme

[greywolf]

The usual recommended course for M50 is short brown - 0.69*67 = 46 elite minutes, which IS significantly further than the 27 elite minute middle distance brown.

maybe down your way, but only three of the last dozen level B/C "long" events in SOAland offered a short brown course. And even so that's only 70% longer

Also the key difference between middle & long is planning style rather than length with the middle emphasising sustained fine navigation rather than major route choice.

Agreed, in theory there should be a significant difference in planning style (and perhaps at international level this is the case) but in reality, given the areas available in much of GB, planners just try and plan the best courses they can (and I'm not criticising them)

Apart from which, the courses many folk are running are too short to be planned with long route choice legs. I put a 1460m leg (29.2 cm at 1:5,000 ) in a 4k Level D event (almost certainly wouldn't have been allowed at a more serious event) recently - the fastest split was 6.18, so it was hardly slow going, but talking to (less speedy) finishers at download many admitted later they'd never had to deal with anything like that before

[pete.owens]

Middle Distance
continuous map reading in the terrain, technical difficulty, a relatively high density of controls, changes in direction and micro rather than macro route choices.

Good description of the planning at Cold Ash.

It does seem odd that Hambledon with terrain that makes for some excellent long route-choice legs was chosen for the elite middle races on the Saturday, while Cold Ash - which is suited to short technical legs, but constraints that make it difficult to plan any leg longer that a km or so - was used for the long courses.

[Marco Polo]

A possible reason that comes to mind is that Hambleden was considered too small to fit in the all long elite courses.

If so it leads to the possibility that had the format been long middle and sprint for all, that the non elite middle could have been on Cold Ash and long on Hambleden..

[JK]

I believe there is more orienteering on an age-grouper middle course than on a long if you follow current guidelines. There is less distance, but more orienteering.

People travel a long way to the JK for the quality orienteering not for the distance. If you want to run 2x12km then most people can do it from their door.

I believe Sprint, Middle, Long should all be incorporated into the JK. Urban for the 1st day doesn't make much sense since it would make it harder for people to travel on the morning and still compete and would make people more tired for the rest of the w/e.

I also respect the last survey that was done which I believe was not conclusive, but am keen to see the 2008/2011 surveys repeated after 2014 and see if there is a trend.

[Oldman]

I appreciate there are differing opinions on this, but long orienteering is not simply a 12K run! Let those who want middle distance organise a weekend of it! Leave the JK alone!

[awk]

Why do people keep wanting to change things? The format is fine as it is!
The double long is a unique challenge - don't spoil it by introducing piddling length middle courses!

If people hadn't wanted to change things, you wouldn't have the format as it currently is.

The fact is that there are plenty of multi-day events which only provide long/classics for us vets. The same can't be said for multi-days incorporating middle - indeed, a sprint/middle/long/relay weekend, really would be a unique challenge in this country. Length isn't everything.

[HOCOLITE]

The British is a classic and most A and B events are long courses so please have a middle in the JK. One of the most enjoyable events I did was a middle at World Cup or whatever it was in the South.