Demographics

[denzil53]

This thread prompted me to look at an extreme comparison of how things have changed over the years. JK 1976 and BOC 2012 were held on the same bit of Dalegarth in the Lakes.

12 of the top 16 on M55 at BOC 2012 were also competing at JK 1976 as M19 or M21.

All 12 have faster times/km at BOC 2012, and on average were 30% faster than they were over 36 years earlier as an M19/M21. I find that amazing.

Whatever they're on, I want some of it!

[Sunlit Forres]

friendly intergenerational rivalry is one of the most positive aspects of these events, and having as many as possible doing the same course can only help this.

Indeed

[Arnold]

At last year's City Race we got 94 starts on Men's Elite (~M21E) and 130 starts on Men's Open (=M21L+M21S?)

http://cityrace.org/files/2012/results/ ... elite.html
http://cityrace.org/files/2012/results/ ... _open.html

i.e. slightly more on the shorter course. How can this split be explained?

The Women's Elite/Women's Open had a much more pronounced skew - 25/96 respectively.

That one's easy to explain I think. The City Race attracts a large number of relative newcomers so they find "Elite" a bit too scary which is why you have more on "Open". And then of course Men like to boast and exaggerate their skills, which is why you have a much higher ratio of Men Elite than Women Elite..!

So that one's a success story for attracting the 21s and 35s, again because it's easy to do and really good work with that target audience by SLOW generally. Whether we get many of those entrants to come to "proper" orienteering events remains to be seen.

[Arnold]

Personally, I’d put M20, 21, 35 and 40 (at least) on the same course at championships, splitting it only if you get 100+ people, so you have a proper interesting competition, with a separate course for elite. At all levels, people like to be in a race against a reasonable number of other people at a similar level. Courses with a few people on them are damaging and should be avoided at all costs. This is a serious issue.

As planner for the upcoming BOC individual (and M35) I completely agree with this. I'm finding myself having to plan 29 courses + non competitive ones, which for 1500 runners seems insanely high. Part of that is a separate M21L course which will likely attract no more than 20 people (if we're lucky) simply because it's so long that if you can do it well, you might as well run elite. So at minimum we should merge 21L with 35L but there are more mergers we can do.

Incidentally, after much moaning to start with (about the loss of age classes) I feel that the generalised Colour Coded approach to Regional events is working pretty well. You now see a much broader mix of age classes on each colour course, indicating that people appreciate just running what they feel like rather than a set course.

[SeanC]

Arnold - as spokesman for the SLOW under 40's, what practical steps could future regional champs organisers take to get more M/W/21/35's to the event?

[SJC]

So at minimum we should merge 21L with 35L but there are more mergers we can do.

The course combinations were presumably put together when there was a much bigger entry to these classes, and with the current age profile are no longer appropriate. What is stopping you putting the M21L with the M35L class?

[aiming off]

Looking at the Midland Champs Results, it is clear that the drop off occurs between M/W 16 and M/W20.

Although intergenerational is a positive aspect of the sport, it is not as motivating as the opportunity to compete against your peers. In several LevelB/C events last year, the quality of the event was excellent, but the number of M/W 70s exceeded the number of under 21's: at a running sport!! Those under 21's that did turn up were lost in the results, scattered thinly over the courses.

At M/W 20 level numbers do hold up at the university BUCS championships, but this is only held once a year. Most sports at university also have a BUCS league, with BUCS points awarded, but not orienteering. Could the excellent Level B/C events held in term time be used to accommodate a BUCS orienteering league, split into appropriate regions, at little incremental effort? Objective to increase participation and attract newcomers in this key age group. The availability of BUCS point could galvanise support from some unexpected university sports federations.

[Ali Wood]

This thread prompted me to look at an extreme comparison of how things have changed over the years. JK 1976 and BOC 2012 were held on the same bit of Dalegarth in the Lakes.

12 of the top 16 on M55 at BOC 2012 were also competing at JK 1976 as M19 or M21.

All 12 have faster times/km at BOC 2012, and on average were 30% faster than they were over 36 years earlier as an M19/M21. I find that amazing.

Whatever they're on, I want some of it!

This research, if correct, is indeed amazing. I ran M21 at Dalegarth JK and M60 at BOC2012; I can't believe I ran faster in the BOC but I'd check if I could only find the results! The map cannot be all that much better for this sort of area nowadays so that does not explain the difference. And my running speed then was MUCH faster...

[DJM]

Arnold wrote

I'm finding myself having to plan 29 courses + non competitive ones, which for 1500 runners seems insanely high.

Yes, it is high. However, some relief might be at hand ...

... the rubric to the BOC Competition Rule includes

Text in bold below has mandatory status and shall be followed by event officials. Other content refers to material provided for guidance and for information.

The course combinations table in section 4.2.2 is not emboldened and is thus there for guidance/information. It is therefore not mandatory to plan all the courses advised if numbers don't support this; the Area Championships course combination table might be a better guide instead.

[aiming off]

Sadly can't see you in the results of JK 76, Ali

But a typical result from a competitor on your M60 course was

63:48 for 7.6km and 355m at BOC 2012 (4th place M60) v 119.56 for 11.2km and 550m at JK 1976 (8th Brit on M21E)

Can't see a drop off in performance.

[EddieH]

I hadn't started orienteering for the Dalegarth JK, but I have some recollection that it was run in thick hill fog.

[ifititches]

was 1976 the JK was that was one associated with an outbreak of D&V, which incapacitated a lot of competitors? Something to do with the source of the water/ exposure to stream water, so could have been norovirus or cryptosporidiosis. If so, that might have slowed down a fair few compeetitors
I can't remember which day most people were affected, but I know one of our Uni team had to be cared for at a team-member's home because of extreme sickness.

[Homer]

I didn't run at Dalegarth in 76 (I'm still annoyed with my Mum for that decision!) but I suspect that there was quite a bit more of the course in the forest which would help account for the slower times back then.

[Peter H]

I did the M55 at BOC 2012.Slower times taken in 1976 are almost certainly due to wandering around in thick mist, which I remember doing quite a bit of. I was at least 2-3 mins/km faster in running in 1976 than I am now on terrain. 2012 was held on a beautiful clear spring day, and was fast underfoot and relatively easy orienteering. You can't really compare the times meaningfully.
A more interesting experiment was carried out on the elite courses at O-ringen in 2006.
On one of the days they ran exactly the same course on the same area as at O-Ringen 30 years previously, on a nice summer day. The old map was available for everyone to study. The map was updated and improved, and the area had changed a bit in vegetation, but while the leading W21E were slightly faster now, the leading M21E were slower now by a few minutes.
It seems the elite of 30 years ago could easily hold their own. One of them, Jan Fjaerstad ran a 2.11 marathon, and there were many others as fast as him from Norway and Sweden.

The 21's in the UK were certainly big classes in the 1970s.
I remember a "City of Sheffield Trophy" event in 1980 (just a normal level C event) with over 120 in M21A.
Last time I looked, same event, same weekend of the year (first weekend in December) there were only 10 in M21L
At the JK in 1978 in Yorkshire, we had to split the M21A into 3 classes A1, A2 and A3 with over 100 in each.
The demographic is mainly just a GB problem.
In most of central Europe, it's a "young" sport, with masses of juniors and 21s, mainly because it is heavily promoted and subsidised in schools and sports clubs. Older classes often finish at 55+, so all you 60+ would be competing in that class. The biggest classes are 21s, like it used to be here.
If we want to change things in that direction, we need to study what they do abroad, and target the young. Some clubs like MAROC have a fantastic junior section, so in a few years they will also have lots of enthusiastic 21s. The young uns are the future.

[aiming off]

Pete

I'm not totally convinced: standards have gone up enormously over the years in the UK in the M50+ age groups.

Another example, you took 7.2 minutes/km at Leith Hill in both M21E and M50 in 1977 and 2008. One performance was 8th in M21E and the other was 13th in M50.