Are our Elite spoiled brats or prima donnas?

[SeanC]

This has been a most entertaining thread.

There are 586 M/W 21's on the ranking list. 8 have pre-entered the Northern Champs. A question for the remaining 578 (elite or not), why not? (us old men and women might learn something).

[Lucy.F.]

In terms of marketing to the 21s I guess it could be quite difficult in some places as the younger 21s are often at university. They are therefore away from home, often without their own transport. So perhaps it depends if

a) there is a university within suitable distance of that event
b) the university has an o' club (which may therefore provide transport or at least have contact with local orienteers who can help)
c) what events this club decides to go to

With euoc we aim to have one club weekend away each month* and we try to have a mixture of training weekends and event weekends. However this limits the number of events we provide transport to, especially as 2 of the weekends are already traditionally event weekends away (Tinto Twin and Scottish Champs). Although we don't go to more events we tell our members of local events, especially if they are accessible by public transport.

*due to the sheer number of events/training that our 'elites' do, the money - although luckily we are heavily subsidised by SU - and the fact we have degrees to do!

In Edinburgh we are very much appreciative of local orienteers who are often willing to help out with transport to events. And I have no knowledge of what it is like in other areas of the country (except Manchester where my sister has been able to use public transport to reach some events and has also been offered much appreciated help by MDOC). But perhaps this is an area to be looked at?

I've not looked at results and things but perhaps you get more in the 21 age group at things like city races where they are accessible to students without cars? I personally am more likely to consider a city race if going on my own because I'm aware of the easier transport arrangements.

Don't know if this is of any help to this topic but it may provide some ideas.

[Lucy.F.]

Oh and the Northern Champs is one week after BUCS to which most unis will be travelling a long way as EUOC are hosting. So it won't be as feasible to do 2 weekends in a row. (It would be 3 for euoc as we are having our alumni weekend on the 12/13 March).

[AndyC]

Lucy,
The saturday race is within yards of the University of Newcastle (UNOC?)

[Freefall]

We could possibly lay on a fleet of limousines to transport the M/W21 racers to Ray Demesne on the Sunday? Maybe I was a bit narky (nharky?)when I started this thread after spending an inordinate amount of time planning for what seemed like little return.
Things seemed a lot simpler when I was on the BOF Fixtures Group, under the careful eye of Peter. Too many clashes these days, wrong age profile, expense of travel, different expectations and training schedule of the Elite etc. If I get asked to plan again I trust that the focus is on the premium age band (55 to 65) and everyone else just takes their chances.

[Red Adder]

It seems as if we have a planner who has been knackered by having to provide the vast number of courses we seem to demand. Apart from the few CAT A events why do we ever need more than 9 courses - White through to Llight Green for TD1-4 then Short Green / Greeen / Blue / Brown/Black for increasing lengths at TD 5. [ I've never planned an event when the long Orange (was Red) ever attracted more than 5/6 people]. Seriously if you can't match yourself to one of theses courses you are probably not in the correct sport.

With a 2.5 hr start window you can almost guarentee being able to cope with 1000 entries (unheard of at most events nowadays) and with officials efforts concentrated on fewer courses you are bound to get more quality and fewer errors.

[Lucy.F.]

Well if UNOC haven't entered many and the organisers would like to encourage them an email may help?

Sometimes INT, ESOC and ELO will send me emails about their local events and if appropriate I'll forward to the mailing list.

But if the initial question was about elites, to my knowledge there isn't a particularly large number of elites in UNOC.

But yes - good point!

[Mrs H]

the vast number of courses we seem to demand.

who exactly is demanding?

Freefall you are still sounding narky! Infact dare I suggest that:

If I get asked to plan again I trust that the focus is on the premium age band (55 to 65) and everyone else just takes their chances.

sounds a bit prima donna-ish to me.

[mharky]

Stop being a dick Colin.

Lucy has made the valid point that students very rarely have their own transport to get to races, yet you come back with some smart arse reply.

You've started making this personal now, that's a mistake.

[roadrunner]

... the younger 21s are often at university.

True, but even most people doing PhDs will surely have finished by the age of 25, so that still leaves 2/3 of the age group. It's been said before, but we're obviously not doing enough to attract this group to the sport (and as someone more like twice that age, I'm not really best placed to say what we should be doing). It's true that there's something of the same trend in road running, but the age imbalance doesn't seem as extreme as in orienteering.

[Freefall]

Stop being a dick Colin.

Lucy has made the valid point that students very rarely have their own transport to get to races, yet you come back with some smart arse reply.

Living in St Andrews where the street and car parks are choked with student cars has perhaps given me the wrong impression. I guess there are also real difficulties with mini-bus travel - our University mountaineering club always had access to the Athletic Union bus at weekends when booked well in advance.

[mharky]

St. Andrews isn't Edinburgh or Sheffield. Don't presume you know our travel circumstances better than we do. Do you not recall I had to get a train before you picked me up whilst I was doing you a favor a couple of weeks ago?

Yes, we have access to minibuses. As long as the driver is over 21 with 3 years on their license. But there is more to organising a weekend away than the availability of a bus, as Lucy pointed out...

With euoc we aim to have one club weekend away each month* and we try to have a mixture of training weekends and event weekends. However this limits the number of events we provide transport to, especially as 2 of the weekends are already traditionally event weekends away (Tinto Twin and Scottish Champs).

We have BUCS, that we are hosting, the weekend before the Northern Champs. That is why EUOC are not there with any of their runners.

You complain we don't go to your races, so we tell you why, and then you belittle our reasons.

[Scott]

Yes, we have access to minibuses.

But lots of university clubs don't, and (aside from Edinburgh and Sheffield) many of those that do have serious problems finding qualified drivers [edit: although from Lucy's and MrsH's comments below it sounds like Edinburgh and Sheffield do have similar problems]. Inability to hire vehicles has been a big factor in the demise of some of the university clubs which folded in (very) recent years.

It's probably also worth pointing out that 27th March will be outside of term for quite a few universities. And as mharky says, university clubs are (quite rightly) prioritising BUCS, and are unlikely to be able to make two long trips on consecutive weekends. I quite fancied the look of Ray Demesne myself, but I can't really afford two expensive trips up north in one month.

[Lucy.F.]

Furthermore to the bus situation there are only about 3 or 4 minibuses available for over 60 sports clubs. We absolutely need buses for BUCS and our Christmas weekend. The rest of our desired once-a-month buses are prioritised and we just have to hope we can get them (which we sometimes can't).
We also have to plan about 6 months in advance for buses as we have to ask for them a semester before and our vice captains do an excellent job in this department.
We also rely on having the drivers available - sometimes due to the way it works we have only one or two drivers in the club.
Edinburgh is lucky because lovely local orienteers sometimes drive hire buses for us (which require over-25s) if we are desperate. Not all unis will have such people around to help.

It isn't as simple as deciding a few weeks before to hop in a car and pop down to an event!!!!

And it is worth remembering that all universities are different.

[Mrs H]

Young Neville told me this week that ShUOC can only get mini-buses if the driver is over 25 now and they have had real problems getting enough people with access to cars to get up to BUCS. He has had to get the Nevillemobile checked out to see if it will make the journey (and his mum upgraded his AA membership from roadside to relay to make sure the passengers did even if the car didn't)