Relay Tips

[frog]

re jab's comment above. How would a relay tem know that the middle leg of the relay was ungaffled? I can't see anything about this in Scottish champs relay rules, it just says gaffling is at the planner's discretion for junior courses. Admitedly I've chucked out my relay day info and can't now find it on the website.
Also given that maps for leg 1 are collected when the runners finished even if the middle leg is ungaffled why can't leg 1 run AA and leg 3 run AB?
Would some runners really sit around with an old map discussing exactly where their controls were in case the 3rd leg runner has some the same? Would this be more or less of an advantage than knowing that you're gonna get BB like team C so will just follow them if possible as their last guy is good?
Sounds like we should do less chatting and muffin eating and more tactical discussion in our team tent during relays! Oh and try and run faster..

[jab]

Maybe I have completely misunderstood the point of gaffling then. I assumed that the idea was that each team ran every possible leg. Since leg 2 is lower TD than legs 1 and 3 then it's not trivial to gaffle it with the other legs as you could only gaffle the TD3 part of legs 1 and 3 with leg 2. And it can't be gaffled with itself as then some teams would have different variants.

If first leg runner has AA and third leg has AB then they wouldn't be running the same combination of legs as a team with leg one as BB and leg two as BA. That's why I assumed that the first leg gaffling would be automatically determine the third leg gaffling.

If that reasoning is completely wrong then I am very happy to be enlightened!

[graeme]

As well as the "tactical" stuff there are things you can do strategically too.
First, you need an aim. The only really strategically interesting one is to win.
Then you need to figure out how that might happen, and what are the key moments in the race. If you fancy your last leg runner in a sprint, then the rest of the team are just trying to set that up. Easy. What if you dont fancy your last leg runner in a sprint?
Now, if you're going to win, at some point you have to break clear. Strategically you have to figure how to do that. Your best chance is to put your best runner up against their weakest. So, assuming you had all the facts available, and counterintuitive though it might seem, SYO's best strategy would have been to put the strongest runner on leg 2.
I remember doing this. In a 3-leg mixed relay the received wisdom was man-women-man. Our woman was the best orienteer, but not the fastest runner - she would be wasted towing the opposition round. Likewise, our men were not the best sprinters: they'd get tosated in a head to head. So we ran man-man-woman. I'm still not sure if it worked: I think the team ended up second getting passed right near the end. Similarly, one Harvester the opposition had craney, who would clearly toast any of our lot on the last leg: instead of putting someone not-quite-as-good against him, we went for a punter, hoping the good guys could build a big enough lead. That one worked (just).

[madmike]

Graeme,
that's all really good stuff, which I agree with completely other that this one clause;

The only really interesting one is to win.

which is complete tosh in my opinion

[awk]

re jab's comment above. How would a relay tem know that the middle leg of the relay was ungaffled? I can't see anything about this in Scottish champs relay rules, it just says gaffling is at the planner's discretion for junior courses.

I'm not sure LostAgain is referring to the Scottish (he might be!). However, I think IIRC, the Junior Inter-Regional Relays has exactly this structure, with the middle (14-) leg ungaffled, whilst the first (16-) and third (18-) are gaffled.

[LostAgain]

Which relay prompted this thread is irrelevant. It was a request for coaching advice. The format is fairly common, Scottish, JK 48-, JIRCs.

So, assuming you had all the facts available, and counterintuitive though it might seem, **** best strategy would have been to put the strongest runner on leg 2.

Reviewing the race, this was the only strategy we thought may have worked. Potentially strongest against weakest. Very hard to predict and implement at the Junior level. Not easy at the senior level.

It is sometimes difficult to assess individual relay capabilities in the junior's. Relay's are so few and far between that it can be hard to determine who is best. Best individual runner does not necessarily make best relay member. Juniors are developing all the time and take (team) pressure differently, and relay experience allows this to happen.

It's great experience for the juniors, hopefully they will learn.

[graeme]

Graeme,
that's all really good stuff, which I agree with completely other that this one clause;

The only really interesting one is to win.

which is complete tosh in my opinion

Then you don't understand (or maybe I didn't write it well enough).
If you aren't aiming to win, there's no interesting strategy: you just put the runners on the legs where you think they will take least time. Only when you're aiming to win is there interesting strategy because, as I explained, it might not be in your interest for your team to complete the course in the fastest possible time (2 secs behind the winner).

Obviously there are still interesting tactics, as I outlined in my previous post whereever you are in the field.

[frog]

Doesn't this just lead to the good teams putting in their relay entry at the last minute so other teams can't base their running order around their competitors?

[madmike]

Graeme,
with the greatest of respect, I understand but I fundamentally disagree with you.

strategy is distinct from tactics, which are concerned with the conduct of an engagement, while strategy is concerned with how different engagements are linked. How a battle is fought is a matter of tactics: the terms and conditions that it is fought on and whether it should be fought at all is a matter of strategy, which is part of the four levels of warfare: political goals or grand strategy, strategy, operations, and tactics.

[LostAgain]

I understand what you meant Graeme

[Spookster]

Relay's are so few and far between that it can be hard to determine who is best.

So should we have more relays...?

The Scottish Relays are always paired with the Scottish Champs, so how about the Southern Relays, the Midland Relays and the Northern Relays paired with each Regional Champs?

[madmike]

Graeme,
edit on your post noted

[madmike]

Relay's are so few and far between that it can be hard to determine who is best.

So should we have more relays...?

The Scottish Relays are always paired with the Scottish Champs, so how about the Southern Relays, the Midland Relays and the Northern Relays paired with each Regional Champs?

and don't forget the SEOA relay champs this very weekend

[Mrs H]

Oh and the 2x2 relays at Merthyr Mawr on the SBOC Midsummer weekend. I believe Young Neville is looking at for a relay partner. He has a passable 1500m time and is very very good on the run in (he can also navigate when he bothers to look at his map and compass - pity he doesn't do any training - but i think he's a hot ticket at this event).

[NeilC]

I'm not sure LostAgain is referring to the Scottish (he might be!). However, I think IIRC, the Junior Inter-Regional Relays has exactly this structure, with the middle (14-) leg ungaffled, whilst the first (16-) and third (18-) are gaffled.

Even at relays with one lap of a lower TD than the others (eg JIRCS) it's possible to gaffle by including a lower TD segment in one or more of the higher TD laps. Unless told otherwise it's best not to assume, and inform your team, that a particular lap will not be gaffled.