Urban race classes

[NeilC]

Nothing like that Eddie. You have to choose in which class you wish to compete when you enter (either elite or an eligible age class). Each class will then have its own set of qualifiers and finals. Thus all the M55s will be split into (most likely) 3 heats with the top x in each heat (X depends on how many enter) going through to the A final.

[EddieH]

I see then that's a pity because the great divide in opinion will remain. I do hope you're not being optimistic about the numbers that will enter. It is hard to see that M35 is likely to produce many people per heat in even 2 heats.

Mind you it will mean that all sorts of people are going in allsorts of different directions which could be fun - even more so if 2 or 3 from a qualifying class start together not knowing which heat they have drawn, thus not knowing who to follow.

[DJM]

To give an example based on a total entry of 700 (numbers for each class scaled from the JK08 Sprint):

M55 would be combined with M60, M14, M16, W35 and W40 and would run courses with approx 78% of the length of the elite courses (to provide the correct winning time of 12-15 mins). NB there are 7 groups of classes altogether, ranging from Group 1 (Open) to Group 7 (M/W10). M55s are in Group 3.

According to the scaled down figures, there would be 34 M55s competing and these would then be spread as evenly as possible between three heats (11+11+12), using the rankings list to balance the strength of each Group 3 heat. Similarly, the other five classes would be spread evenly through the Group 3 heats.

According to the rules, and for the number of M55s involved, the top half of the (i.e. first six) M55s in each heat then compete in the Group 3 A Finals, and similarly for the other five classes. The remaining runners compete in the B Finals for Group 3.

The M55 A Finalists would then start in their own start time block in the Group 3 A Finals, with the M60s in a separate block, etc. There's a recommendation that they should start in reverse order of qualification position too, with the best qualifiers off last.

So, as Neil says, expected numbers mean that it is simply impossible to have all classes running in the same heats as the elite, and also complete the competition within daylight ...

[awk]

I see then that's a pity because the great divide in opinion will remain. I do hope you're not being optimistic about the numbers that will enter. It is hard to see that M35 is likely to produce many people per heat in even 2 heats.

As you've now spotted Eddie, whilst DJM talks about multiple heats and a final for next year's sprints, for quite a few classes the heats will be completely meaningless, and even for those of us in relatively popular classes, the quality of the racing will be drastically reduced.

All in the name of 'marketing' . It'll be interesting to see who is the sponsor, and what support this new, extra value, super-exciting, competition attracts.

Equally, I'd be interested to see what DJM "expected numbers" comes from, and I can't find anywhere where NeilC says he expects such massive numbers as to prevent open heats.

And even on those optimistic figures...gosh....34 runners in the M55s (bearing in mind this is one of the biggest classes around), with heats where one can run against 11, yes 11!!! others in the same competition. Last year, I was in a class of 200+, in a heat of 60, and in a final where there were 32 runners within a minute either side of me.

[Gnitworp]

We're definitely losing something a lot of people liked.

I also have fond memories of The British Middle Distance Championship Race in 2005 at which I got 170 World Ranking Points for coming 86th. Of course detractors will say it wasn't a Middle Race for an M55; far too long.

[DJM]

What a dose of rampant pessimism we're seeing here! But it's something we're used to with regard to Sprint races ... However, much higher goals are achievable with a positive approach. A couple of examples show this:

The Sprint race at JK2008 was planned with an entry of 1500 in mind in the face of many who doubted we'd get more than 1000. The final entry was 1500.

The Sprint Championships was introduced at WMOC in 2008, again in the face of criticism that few would enter as they were of the wrong generation. What happened? Over 90% of those who entered the "traditional" WMOC also entered the Sprint, 3000 in all.

The key to both these successes was belief. Belief that the goals were achievable, this translating into a positive attitude and effective promotion.

So, my expectation that a combined British Sprints can attract 700 may well be an underestimate rather than an overestimate. With proper promotion, the event could attract numbers to rival the JK Sprint - and then we'd have to re-write the Competition Rules again! Let's stop being so negative about the prospect ...

And even on those optimistic figures...gosh....34 runners in the M55s (bearing in mind this is one of the biggest classes around), with heats where one can run against 11, yes 11!!! others in the same competition.

This is just twisting the figures. Andy, you are one of the biggest proponents of disregarding age and wanting to run against those of similar ability, so why mention competing against 11 M55s instead of including all the other runners as well?

Last year, I was in a class of 200+, in a heat of 60, and in a final where there were 32 runners within a minute either side of me.

Well, the M55 model I'm working with has a "class" of 140 and heats of 46 or 47. Aren't we in the same ball park here?

[Gnitworp]

You can't run in the Elite Championship and your age category championship any more because they'll be held simultaneously. Some people will miss this, but then, I suppose, tough.

[roadrunner]

You can't run in the Elite Championship and your age category championship any more because they'll be held simultaneously. Some people will miss this, but then, I suppose, tough.

I've never understood why this is a big deal. You only have to go back a few years, and there was only one conventional BOC; if you were (say) a good M35, you would have had to choose whether to run M35, or run up to M21. I don't recall any great arguments over this (but there wasn't Nopesport in those days); the splitting off of BEOC, if I remember correctly, was down to quality of terrain and maybe time of year, rather than giving people the chance of going for two titles.

[graeme]

if you were (say) a good M35, you would have had to choose whether to run M35, or run up to M21. I don't recall any great arguments over this

You weren't paying attention then. You might choose to run M35, but you couldn't choose to run against the best M35s for the British Championships because they were off running M21. As they should: after all the latest WOC classic selection race winner is a 35.
BOC M/W35 "winners" were, quite simply, not the best person of that age group in that forest on that day "champion" is a misnomer. Nothing personal: even if they had been, they weren't given the chance to prove it.

[EddieH]

AWK wrote [quote][i]As you've now spotted Eddie, whilst DJM talks about multiple heats and a final for next year's sprints, for quite a few classes the heats will be completely meaningless, and even for those of us in relatively popular classes, the quality of the racing will be drastically reduced[/i].[/quote]

Just to make absolutely clear of my position before you use me on your side, I am fully in favour of the move (again assuming that the sprint and middle will share a weekend) to a single sprint champs.

What the new system does not do is satisfy the AWK side as well, which I think it could have done. However I think DJM clearly showed inconsistencies in AWK's arguments.

Graeme's argument haas validity, but it is far from unusual that a British Championship does not have the best competing for any number of reasons. Wishing to compete in something else is far from unusual. Do you think the British lawn tennis champion believes he is better than Andrew Murray?

[Gnitworp]

The thing about the separate Elite Sprint Championships open to all, is that it worked, and is sustainable even with increased numbers taking part (you just increase the number of heats). Many people, other than M35s wanting an undiluted Age Class Championship, simply enjoyed its ambience and the opportunity to take part in an all-inclusive event. Now that the powers that be, in their wisdom, have decided to deny them this chance, could you just allow them the privilege of nostalgic regret?

[graeme]

Wishing to compete in something else is far from unusual. Do you think the British lawn tennis champion believes he is better than Andrew Murray?

This is a total red herring Eddie, as you well know. There's a big difference between an
individual choosing what to do and a structure being designed to make it impossible to do the two most important races of the year. Do you think the British lawn tennis championships would be scheduled during Wimbledon? The AAAs during Olympic week? The FA cup final on the same day as an International?

What a dose of rampant pessimism we're seeing here!

Agreed: the idea that sprint isn't popular enough to support an open ("elite") championships and an age-group championships, and so one has to be abolished, is unbelievably pessimistic...

... that is what you meant isn't it?

[greywolf]

Well, the M55 model I'm working with has a "class" of 140 and heats of 46 or 47. Aren't we in the same ball park here?

Sorry David, I know what you're saying but it's not really the same thing... and it looks even more artificial when you consider some of the smaller classes, presumably the ten or so W35s your model anticipates will be split 3 or 4 in each heat - it's impossible to produce balanced heats with those sort of numbers (I'm an enthusiast for the rankings list but it's not that good) especially since the seeding has to be done on entries and not on who actually shows up on the day.

More pertinently, if there's only 34 M55s, why do you need heats at all? Let's be wildy optimistic and dream that the British Sprint Champs gets the same entry as the Bicton JK Sprint (1600+)... even then, (apart from M/W21) only 4 age classes had > 75 competitors, with a further 5 between 60 & 75... and even for those classes the event functioned perfectly well without heats

The "elite" event is straightforward: 3 competitions (men / women / young juniors) with a qualification / final system - the two races are needed to mimic WOC and because now there are too many entrants for straight finals - it has a great atmosphere, and there's personal challenges for those of us who are very far from elite: make the B final, be in the top ten vets etc...

...but trying to shoehorn 32 age classes into this system is a recipe for dog's breakfast.
And, no i'm not a fan of the "adding two races together" system either. Let's just have a straight final. In fact, why not designate the JK sprint as the British Age Class sprint champs?

[DJM]

and even for those classes the event functioned perfectly well without heats

Yes, the JK Sprint can only really work without heats as it is the day of travel to the JK weekend for most competitors, so one race in the afternoon fits the bill perfectly.

The British Sprints Championships is a different thing altogether and is designed to occupy one day of a weekend, ideally combined with the British Middle Distance Championships. It has two races rather than one as the strong supposition when the structure was set up was that it would attract fewer competitors if there were only one race (back to the value for money brigade again!).

It's not just WOC that the qualification+finals model is mimicking either; don't forget that WMOC has the same structure too ... and many more of us get the chance to compete at WMOC than at WOC!

[EddieH]

I take your point Graeme. However I do think that we should have a British Sprint Champs for all ages, and I don't think it's a great idea to have it as a stand-alone event.
I too have enjoyed the British elite sprints but would not go too far to travel to it. If you are to win your case I think it vital that the new BSC is on an attractive weekend - in fact if conventional BOC hits a bank holiday with the relay on the Monday I'd say the Saturday would be perfect. However we know how rare it is that a bank holiday can be achieved.