4 Levels

[SJC]

No, we are operating the new 3-level system.........we, the region, have created the differentiation.

Well AWK, your region can carry on operating with your 3-level system, although reading the above it still looks like 4.

Meanwhile, let the regions that want to have a 4 level system do so, and include some events which are part of a nationally cordinated calendar. That way everyone can have an event structure that suits them. You can simply put all your regional events into just the lower level.

[Clive Coles]

I wish EddieH you would read what I actually said

Although not a requirment under the new rules, most clubs still offer pre-entry facilities at Regional events.

I am not confusing old and new style regional events. I realise, as Spookster correctly points out, all the new rules now state is

Organisation: The organisation should be sufficient to cope with the number of
competitors expected to attend the event. Regional (Level 2) events should normally provide the following facilities:

+ at least some entry on the day

That's however why I posed the question

I wonder how orienteers will react if we start to run regional events on a turn up and run on the day basis.

Clearly BOF rules don't require us to have pre-entries any more. All I am trying to find out is what do you all now expect to be provided in the future ?

Is anybody running their regional events without pre-entries. If so what was the reaction from the punter ?

[mharky]

The question should be, what's the reaction from the punter when you run out of maps for their desired course because you didn't do pre-entries...

[PKJ]

b) a number of these regional events (of whatever type) are of significantly higher quality and should be clearly identified

Point b is the way to go.

So, if this AGM motion is passed, most clubs will find that their traditional big Regional/Badge events are not in the new Level 2. Level 2 would only have the 'significantly higher quality' ones - eg: (in England) November Classic, Dales Weekend, SINS.

And we would still have some 8-course events and some 12-course events in Level 3.
(which looks rather like 5 levels, and hardly worth arguing, or writing to newsletter editors about...)

[awk]

SJC, perhaps I need to clarify. My response was specific to a comment from blondebombshell, but the overall picture is somewhat more complex.

What we are operating is the national 3-tier scheme, but with localised differentiation of some events. We not only have the Yorkshire Superleague, level 2 events that fit certain criteria, but also a Yorkshire Urban League, a mix of level 2 and 3 events which fit another set of criteria, and a Yorkshire Night League, mostly level 3 events which fit a third set. That's just the YHOA stuff - as a club we also differentiate out our level 3 events -so you can see that to talk about operating a de facto 4 level scheme is a little bit off the mark. If one did start equating each brand to a level, one might say we've got half a dozen or more levels, but this is arrant nonsense. I would say we've simply differentiated events to target different markets, something we've been able to do more effectively since we've been freed up from the the previous system of top down control.

Meanwhile, let the regions that want to have a 4 level system do so, and include some events which are part of a nationally cordinated calendar.

There is already a nationally co-ordinated calendar, involving a significant number of events (including CS Cup, Harvester, Area Championships etc) - what events would you see being added to those, i.e. what criteria would you set, and what co-ordination do they need other than already available?

Incidentally, I've never been against regions operating a 4 level system if they want - what I object to is having it imposed nationally.

[awk]

Is anybody running their regional events without pre-entries. If so what was the reaction from the punter ?

Some we do, some we don't. There's been no particular reaction either way.

[NeilC]

So, if this AGM motion is passed, most clubs will find that their traditional big Regional/Badge events are not in the new Level 2. Level 2 would only have the 'significantly higher quality' ones - eg: (in England) November Classic, Dales Weekend, SINS.

And the big question over the proposed level 2 (old National Event level?) is how will the quality of these events be defined and who will decide which ones they will be.

The November Classic for example normally provides great competition since lots of people go to it, and it is regularly used as a selection race. But BOF are keen to distinguish between events and competitions and several of the more recent Classics have not provided anything at all special in terms of terrain, planning or organisation.

Hopefully all will become clear in the AGM motion notes.

[Clive Coles]

Thanks AUK.

You are confirming what I hoped you would say.

It does seem the new rules and guidelines do in practice provide sufficient flexibility to allow clubs to run their main Sunday morning fixtures under level 2 rules if they wish.

They can keep costs down to old District event levels by not having pre-entries.

They can continue to overprint sufficient maps using tried and tested estimation methods based on experience.

They can give their club members more events at which to score ranging points if that's what their members want.

So it's now really up to the clubs to decide how to classify their next programme of events.

I guess most clubs will wait to see if the AGM votes to stay with 3 levels. Then, depending on the outcome, some upgrades may occur.

The big mistake IMO was for BOF to dump the old District events in level 3. I am sure they had their reasons but goodness knows why. Even 3 years ago it was evident that many District events offered comparable facilities and planning quality to Regional events

Had BOF placed these events in level 2 in the first place some clubs may have downgraded a few events but I don't think there would have been anything like the heated debate that we are now experiencing.

You only gain acceptance of a change if you communicate and explain and do not provoke. BOF could have managed this transformation from old style to new in a far more positive way. We have ended up where we deserve ~ another AGM confrontation.

I will still be casting my vote in favour of 4-tiers. Although we can live with 3-tiers I do think the additional tier adds scope for a degree more clarity to what style of event is being staged.

I would like the second tier to contain those large regional events which set out to attract out-of-area competitors These would be subject to timetabling and scrutiny by the National Fixtures Committee as at present.

a third tier to contain the smaller regional and larger local events which make up most of our regular Sunday morning programme. These would be subject to the timetabling and scrutiny of the Regional Association once the Level 1/2 timetable had been fixed. Currently all regional event timetabling is controlled through the National Fixtures committee. The more local events we upgrade the more control over the timetable we surrender to the National committee. I frankly don't think they are seeking to vet the entire Sunday morning programme. They only need to timetable the big events which attract out-of area competitors.

the bottom tie to contain the small club based local events which are staged by clubs when they wish. These just require informal liason between adjacent clubs.

[awk]

The big mistake IMO was for BOF to dump the old District events in level 3. I am sure they had their reasons but goodness knows why. Even 3 years ago it was evident that many District events offered comparable facilities and planning quality to Regional events.

Agree entirely - in my opinion this has been the root cause of all the problems, and went completely against what the event review group recommended.

[EddieH]

ABSOLUTELY. Nad they are still compounding the problem by using the names regional and local.

I fear the AGM will vote in another change which will have similar problems changing over, and all the rncour starts again.

It's beginning to settle down - please vote against this motion and for some stability.

[pete.owens]

I note that Aire have a regional event on Sunday at Ilkley.
Advertised as 'regional - level 2 - with full range of courses connected to age classes'

On 11 April they also have a reional event at Bramham West Woods.
Advertised as 'regional - level 2 - with limited range of courses'

In old money Ilkley is a Regional / Badge event and Bramham is a District / colour coded event.
In new money they are both Regional, but Ilkley is level 2a and Bramham is level 2b. Aire still seem to be running the 4 level event structure, but calling is a 3 level structure.

As an orienteer all I want to know is what the events offer without having to look at the details to find out about number of courses etc.

As an orienteer you are only going to run ONE course. Both of these are standard cross country events which offer courses with a range of difficulty and lengths, so there will almost certainly something to suit you.

One of the least significant things about an event are how many different courses that OTHER competitors will be running round. Indeed a week later on the other side of the Pennines you could enter a Level 1 event where there will be only THREE courses.

I would have thought that far more significant details would be:
day vs night.
sprint vs middle vs long.
score vs cross country.
urban vs woodland vs moorland vs dunes
relay vs individual

If you are going to rely on level to know what is on offer then you will need rather more than 4 of them.

In any case, even if the number of courses on offer is your only criterion for choosing to attennd an event, it is worth noting that this is not what the AGM motion in proposing. If it passes, then both those events would be at level 3 of the proposed structure.

[Blonde bombshell]

Pete - I admit that I am concentrating on the old fashioned cross country events.

I am merely asking why the old regional/badge and district/colour coded events have been lumped together in the level 2. I see them as different events and I thought that Aire also saw them as different (2a & 2b).

Orienteering has become so diverse now that I think I'm beginning to lose the plot (I am sure some of you think thats already happened). The diversity is drawing in new people (good point), but making others parts of the sport quite complicated.

I'll just have to go away and think things through again.

[pete.owens]

I've not got involved in the levels debate but I became a victim of the set up (I think) I run W50S. At the national last weekend it was fine- probably green standard, and At OD event in Jan it was mapped to Short Green but I found out last night that at my own club event this weekend it is mapped to Very Short Green. So when I enter under my age class I never know what I'm doing. I 'm not up to short blue but will do green if terrain not physical but will I now have to always enter a colour and not my age class to ensure I get the course I want to run.

I would have thought that the new event structure should suit you in that case. You can enter the course you actually want to run rather than whatever course happens to be allocated for W50S.

Indeed now that anyone can compete on any course, I don't think there is any point in recommending separate short and long courses for each age class.

[seabird]

Just a back of the envelope calculation re the Ilkley Level 2 event. (I am not an official of this event so don't take these as gospel!)

It attracted 521 runners (incl 172 EOD).

There were no access fees and no new map survey fees. So entry was fees were kept low. £4.50 Seniors £2.00 Juniors and all TD3- seniors. (Student discount as well, but I can't identify those.) £1 surcharge for EOD.

The event took £2,169.50 (minus fees of some helpers who will have run free)
Pre-entries will have cost £82.11
BOF Levy £984.60.

That leaves approximately £1000 to pay for all other expenses; toilets, officials, maps etc. A guestimate of £200 profit for the club.

I would be satisfied with that - but it does gall slightly that BOF will take more than four times the profit for an event that they have no input into - and which may well have attracted extra numbers because of the low entry fees for an event on quality terrain.

It does suggest that we could have increased the club's profit by increasing entry fees, while at the same time reducing BOFs take by reducing participation. Surely not what the levy should be about.

[Spookster]

I am merely asking why the old regional/badge and district/colour coded events have been lumped together in the level 2. I see them as different events and I thought that Aire also saw them as different (2a & 2b).

Orienteering has become so diverse now that I think I'm beginning to lose the plot (I am sure some of you think thats already happened). The diversity is drawing in new people (good point), but making others parts of the sport quite complicated.

Here's a suggestion. Think of the three event levels not as a way of knowing what sort of event each is, or how many courses it will have, but rather as a distinction between who is scheduling and approving the event, and setting the standards to which it runs.

So, Level 1 is overseen nationally by BOF and the relevent committees and groups (even though events are then run by members of associations and clubs, with varying degrees of input from BOF committees, Events Managers, etc).

Level 2 is managed by the regional association. They decide when events occur, and what mix of types of event they would like. They can hold regional competitions at these events if they like. They decide whether an embargo is required, how the maps must be printed, and whether they will require a Grade 2 or accept an experienced Grade 3 controller. Events can be pre-entry or EOD. In summary, at this level, the association can do what it thinks is best for participants in the region.

Level 3 is managed by a club. As long as a club meets the minimum requirements to manage the safety of participants, it can do whatever it likes, whenever it likes. Ideal for training of beginners and novice event officials, and for growing local participation.

Now, your point was that AIRE see traditional badge events and traditional full colour coded events as different. Yes! In some important respects they are different (number of courses, pre-entry or not, perhaps controller grade, expected number of runners, etc). But, they are both events that AIRE has chosen to have registered and approved regionally, and hence they are both Level 2.

The fact is, event level alone cannot tell you everything you might want to know about an event before you decide whether to go. The diversity of the sport (which is great ) is such that you need much more information that 3-levels (or 4-levels) can give you.

To illustrate the point, here's a list of different types of event and competition within each level:

1nc - national championship
1im - international multi-day
1ac - area champs
1cc - compass sport cup

2ac - age-class competition (old "badge")
2cc - colour coded
2us - urban/sprint
2l - long
2n - night

3t - training
3nt - night training
3c - CATI
3sc - spring cup (club competition)
3slcc - small/local colour coded

That's a sample - the lists in level 2 and 3 are far longer in reality.

So, having 4-levels doesn't help. What will help you any others (especially newcomers) in deciding which events to go to, is when clubs and associations provide good publicity and information about what they are offering.