Uncrossable boundaries

[Scott]

It's clubs who fail to tape/otherwise mark compulsory crossing points who are clouding the issue. This seems to be an exclusively northern syndrome - most southern clubs will slather the only gate in an 8ft deer fence with masses of tape, just to make sure you can't miss it.

If there's even the smallest possibility that someone may cross at the wrong place, clearly mark the crossing points on the ground. It takes no effort, means that competitors have no excuse, and there's absolutely no reason not to do it.

[Anne]

RJ,

Perhaps you should have made some attempt to explain exactly what the crossings were like – and why you believe people should not have been able to confuse them – before attacking someone who wasn’t there (and yet is clearly responsible for all those who crossed in the wrong place?) for making some very valid points.

I don’t doubt that it is extremely frustrating to lose an area due to something like this. But I also think that it is the responsibility of those organising the event to make sure that things like this don’t happen.

If the instructions were indeed “simple”, and if the precautions taken (e.g. taping crossing points) were aimed at minimising any confusion, then this need not have happened. “Blatant cheating” – I very much doubt this was the case for anyone. As for “sloppy orienteering”, perhaps you’ll admit that you’re guilty of that occasionally?

The other people on this thread appear to be discussing ways in which to ensure things like this do not happen again, by taking into account the reasons why problems may have occurred in the first place. If you are serious about avoiding the problem of losing areas due to crossing point issues in the future, you may - controversially - like to listen to them.

[graeme]

Perhaps you should have made some attempt to explain exactly what the crossings were like – and why you believe people should not have been able to confuse them –

The allowed crossings were not gaps in the wall as RJ says. They were, as stated in the details and marked on the map, old gateways about 1m wide which were pretty much invisible if viewed from sharper then 45 degrees. And definitely distinct from broken down holes in the wall, which in places were no more than two stones high.

I just checked the details, and I'm delighted to say I'm now 100% sure I crossed in the right place!

Maybe those people who admit to erroneously going through through "significant holes in the wall" will now be disqualifying themselves?

We've always done it this way, we have 20 years experience that it doesn't work, so we'll go on blaming other people until it does work...

[RJ]

Yes Anne.... to be fair I am using a little artistic licence here.....!!!!

As people have suggested.... mark the uncrossable (not to be crossed) boundary with a purple line and show where it should be crossed. Done! But it still hasn't worked. I just don't think people are taking it seriously. They don't realise the whole point of the exercise. The outcome is that the area is lost for future use. It isn't just the club who should feel a sence of loss...... no one is going to enjoy that area again!

So, yes Anne, I am listening to the arguments.... but illustrating that we still haven't solved the problem. People still don't see the importance of using the crossing point, and the consequences of not using same.

Where you assert, Scott, that it is a northern thing not to tape crossing points.... I will have to disagree. Not in my experience! Boundaries are often weak fences and the farmer asks that crossing points are used, rather than climb fences and further weaken them. Anyone who regularly orienteers in the area accepts that and makes the effort to find the crossing point.... which is usually obvious, taped, often a wooden stile with steps(!) and accurately mapped! Muncaster Fell event recently.... exactly that!

[Darwin]

RJ - Are you seriously saying that we have lost the use of Angle Tarn Pikes because some people crossed this wall yesterday?

If so, that's ridiculous - it's a broken wall with huge gaps all over it and doesn't enclose anything at all. In fact it turns into an "official" broken wall just 50 metres from one of the marked crossing points.

Please clarify.

[Ben S]

I still can't work out whether I crossed in the right place yesterday! How is a competitor supposed to know what state the "old gateway" is in? It's perfectly possible that the wall could have started to collapse near to where the gate used to be, leaving it in a very similar state to a normal gap in the wall. The place I crossed first time round (6-7 on black) had a gap a couple of metres across, maybe a stone or two high, with an elephant track approaching it from another direction. It definitely seemed to be in the right place, and everyone I saw was crossing there, but it then bared no resemblance to the second crossing point I used (10-11), which was a perfect 1m-wide gap with a stream running through it. When crossing points are so ambiguous, I really think tapes are necessary.

[RJ]

......that's ridiculous - it's a broken wall ......

So we now have your attention! And..... out come the platitudes.

I'm certain it wasn't me.... I crossed at the marked point. The wall is broken down and
is so difficult to spot where to cross it. etc. etc.

The organising club drew a purple line on the map. We ALL KNOW WHAT THAT MEANS! It is not up to us to second guess the planner/organiser or to argue about the merits of the restriction. It is what it is.... a 'not to be crossed boundary'! The organising club must have very good reasons to show the wall as such.

SIMPLE..... obey the instructions! Whatever the repercussions are this time, regarding the future use of the area, IT DOES MATTER. Follow the instructions and cross at the proper places..... no excuses. There are far too many 'very arrogant' orienteers out there (none on Nopesport, obviously! ) who feel these things don't apply to them, and are not prepared to make the effort to comply with the instructions.

[mharky]

RJ, setting up remote webcams will enable to you catch the vandolising cheaters, but they will still be crossing and damaging the wall, as well as access to the area. You need to strategically position snipers, anyone who gets within a meter or so of the broken sections with intent in the eyes gets a round between them. Positive punishment is such an effective form of conditioning.

[Gnitworp]

Isn't having a control at a crossing point simply a question of priorities? If you want to virtually guarantee its use then have one and sacrifice other considerations, i.e., route choice. Most courses I've run without markers on compulsory crossing points would have lost little in quality and challenge by having them. The essence of orienteering to me is freedom to take any sensible, physically possible route between controls without having to deliberate whether I'm allowed to do so.

[AndyC]

mharky

Show some moderation -either taser hits or paintball pellets not bullets

[EddieH]

I feel this thread has had a result. Virtually everyone here now seems to be taking it for granted that boundaries that are forbidden to cross should be overprinted with the purple line.

Sadly I agree with RJ that there are a few arrogant orienteers that think to hell with it I'll do what I like with no thought towards any consequencies quite aside from cheating.

I remember an event where the details had specifically talked about valuable racehorses in fields in the forest, emphasising the reason for the mapped out of bounds. There was a leg where we could choose which side of one such field to go. I asked a fellow competitor which way he had gone and his answer was "across the field - I wasn't going to go round". I am gobsmacked by that attitude, and if you are reading this although I think you've left the sport, you know I know who you are.

Very sadly people may be right about placing controls on crossing points.

Then we come to urban events with the not to be crossed symbols. Partly we are responsible as organisers - we SHOULD emphasise the compulsory meaning of these symbols at every event as so many people are new to the maps. Do we ever have an urban event without people either cheating or unknowingly breaking the rules?

[Darwin]

RJ - Now you are being ridiculous. I am asking you a simple question - have we been banned from the area or are you just winding people up for your own amusement?

You are also missing my point wilfully by quoting my post selectively.

You are correct - the merits of the restriction are absolutely not relevant to whether competitors should follow the rules. They should be followed absolutely.

However, the merits of the restriction, in this case, as to whether we are now banned from the area are 100% relevant. If a landowner has banned us in this particular case for people crossing two stone-high large gaps in this isolated piece of broken wall - then it would be clear that they were simply looking for an excuse for that ban.

BTW - I crossed the wall at the marked point - wouldn't dream of doing otherwise - in this or any other competition.

[LostAgain]

The event at Angle Tarn yesterday had a "Purple Solid Line" marking an uncrossable wall.

As I approached this wall, I could not determine exactly where I was to cross. The wall clearly had holes in it. I looked and looked for something (tapes) to confirm which point I was to cross. There was no tape and therefore crossed where I thought I should, however, I noted a W21 crossing a 20 - 30m further up. I'm not sure which one of us was correct.

When you put a uncrossable boundary on the map, then surely it is the organising clubs responsiblity to also clearly mark the crossing points? With the best will in the World, if you do not mark the correct point to cross on a wall with numerous holes in it, you are bound to get people crossing through the holes, not malicious just their navigation is not as good as some.

If absolutely critical then put a control on it.

It is always a little more obvious when there is a ladder/stile.

[DM]

I ran course 3 yesterday and crossed the infamous wall at a correct point, found by reading the map, contour detail and other info. I accept there were other places that the wall could be easily crossed at and the suggestion of taping the correct crossing may have helped some.

It would not have helped any who are happy to cheat or those who are ignorant of what the purple line means. I reminded one runner what it meant as he was climbing a not very broken down part of the wall - he climbed back down. Another runner wearing a blue and red shirt was seen crossing towards the NE end of the long section of purple line, clearly not at a crossing point.

Darwin has a valid (unanswered) question RJ, has future use been withdrawn or not, or is this more artistic licence? I would expect the landowner to discuss this/inform the organising club, MDOC in the first instance.

[RJ]

.....for people crossing two stone-high large gaps in this isolated piece of broken wall .......

It is not our place to second guess what the organising club was trying to do. They drew a purple line on the map..... end of story.

When you approach the boundary and are unsure where to cross then there is a question as to whether you should continue on the course. Retire and go back to the start.... don't put the area and the club in jeopardy. Or alternatively examine the boundary a little further along and see if you can find the crossing point.

When you get to the finish put in a complaint about the unfair nature of the course at that point. If upheld the course can be voided. The only damage will be to the reputation of the planner and controller and not to the greater image of the sport.

Come on..... what do you think we are trying to achieve here?