British Champions

[graeme]

More than any other event, relays benefit from a big turn out. It's the only race where the orienteering experience (as opposed to competition) really depends on others showing up, be they teammates or rivals. Usually, there's more atmosphere than at the individuals. The JK relays are an annual disappointment when some hoped-for teammate has to go to work/lectures. Maybe having JK the relay on Sunday would help? BRC/Harvester combination?

Don't know what the answer is, but it does need to be considered.

[IanD]

BRC/Harvester combination?

Running in the middle of the night takes a lot out of you, or at least me. To the extent that I'm reluctant to run anything during the day on Harvester Saturday, and wiped out on Harvester Sunday.

Combining anything serious with the Harvester would simply stop me running one of them.

[LostAgain]

According to my calendar all the home nations take both May Bank Holidays 4th & 25th this year. So it should in theory be possible to have all the British Champs in May ove Bank Holiday weekends.

Night Champs being the exception.

[Gross]

But being a Bank Holiday in Scotland doesn't mean it's a local holiday as well.... Holiday's vary from area to area... particularly the late May one.

[geomorph]

The dilemma is that 'middle' is technically different from 'short classic' so there are some genuine 's' runners who would lose out if there were no 's' courses. If there is a true demand for a 'short classic' then it should be a separate event into which all can enter and not be constrained by it running at the same time as the long/classic. Right now the same group of people would win these as win the classic distance, though over time this may change if people specialise.

But what's the point when for an event of that length a proper middle race is much better than a "short classic"? If the S runners aren't physically up to running a classic course to the level they want to, or simply want to run a shorter distance for any other reason, then maybe they should specialise in running middle courses - though they will probably still find the people who are at the top in the classic distance coming and winning the middle race too.

The only problem of course is the lack of proper middle events - not helped by the attitude of many that they get better value for money by being out in the forest for longer. Isn't one of the aims of the new event structure to encourage more of these type of events? I'm definitely with Mrs H on this one - one of the most memorable and enjoyable runs I've had recently was a Blue planned as a (maybe slightly long) middle. Would rather do that than spend longer in the forest on a boring Brown any day.

Yes, hence the use of the term 'if there is true demand'.
I cannot speak for those who regularly do 'S' and clearly have high technical skills, but I suspect they are looking for Middles. I don't think that it is always a fitness issue; definitely some of this group are competitive at 'L' too.

If more middles are to be provided then is it practical with a volunteer force to offer a 'second non-comp' course for say an extra pound, to those who want longer in the woods?

[EddieH]

There is a lot of theoretical proposals in this thread.

I am concerned about the introduction of full age group championships this year. Having middle and sprint on 2 different weekends simply means IMO that almost everyone will decide not to attend both, and many not bother with either. Small fields will then make the usual suspects claim that they are not valuable titles and argue to disenfranchise large numbers by starting large classes such as M/W55 - 80 all together - which of course would in turn mean that the oldder people are even less likely to bother to go ........

We want variety, I want variety, but in truth we have a lot of work to do to persuade large numbers to try out middle, sprint (what a misleading name), urban etc.

I think the long lead up time to offering the majority any championships has been unhelpful, and the way it is being done this year ..... well we'll wait and see.

Incidentally it's not too late to enter the sprint champs, and I love the idea of offering 2 races to make the champions.

[Adventure Racer]

If more middles are to be provided then is it practical with a volunteer force to offer a 'second non-comp' course for say an extra pound, to those who want longer in the woods?

I was going to suggest that those who want longer in the woods should just go out for a run after their run, but a second competition is a much better suggestion. How about a purple or red course to provide the greatest possible contrast from a middle? Don't see why it should need to be non-comp though if it's planned at TD3 and the main event is TD5 - the expectation would be that everybody had run a middle course first, and I suppose if you wanted to take it seriously you have the choice between not running to save your legs, or running slowly round the middle checking out the area. Prizes should be awarded!

[LostAgain]

There is a lot of theoretical proposals in this thread.

I am concerned about the introduction of full age group championships this year. Having middle and sprint on 2 different weekends simply means IMO that almost everyone will decide not to attend both, and many not bother with either.

It was hoped when starting this thread to spark some discussion and proposals, seems to be working

Your second point is very valid. Having travelled extensively to secure Interland Selection, then attend Interland, followed by BOC, and the JK to come (Scottish & O- Ringen) we as a family are not attending the other British Championships. We had actually initially overlooked them, not realising they were actually British Championships until someone mentioned them t a recent event.

This prompted me to ask whether there is a better way to organise this.......

[LesS]

When the A/B split for senior classes was changed to Long and Short, generally 60min/40min winning times, both with TD5, there was no added criteria that Long was to be inherently superior to Short and that those who chose to run Short would be denigrated by those who ran Long as not being proper orienteers - the basis was purely on how long people wanted to run for - and, as a side benefit, a very good marketing tool to try and bring non-orienteers into the sport.

Each week, we run our personal preference and are ranked accordingly in our sex, age group and course, we have - in increasing value - local leagues, rankings and Master's Cup showing each orienteer's consistency in their chosen event and all such events offer Long and Short.

So why when it comes to the event called the British Championships (or British Age Group Championships) do Long runners wish to deny their colleagues who choose to run Short every week of the year, the opportunity to be a British Champion in their chosen event. That is their Championship just as the Long is the Long course runner's Championship.

As it happens, I run both Long and Short depending on all those factors offered elsewhere but personally have no interest whatsoever in Sprint or Urban racing, but I don't wish to prevent or sneer at those with a different opinion from having their fun. Feel free to run what you want but allow those with a different preference to do their thing too.

[LostAgain]

So why when it comes to the event called the British Championships (or British Age Group Championships) do Long runners wish to deny their colleagues who choose to run Short every week of the year, the opportunity to be a British Champion in their chosen event. That is their Championship just as the Long is the Long course runner's Championship. .

If "Long" and "Short" are to have "British Champions" then they have to be run on separate occassions. Not doing so inevitably means that the best may not be running the race and therefore you get "A" and "B" races and your suggested "Sneering" as choices have to be made.

[roadrunner]

If "Long" and "Short" are to have "British Champions" then they have to be run on separate occassions. Not doing so inevitably means that the best may not be running the race and therefore you get "A" and "B" races and your suggested "Sneering" as choices have to be made.

Isn't that just the same problem you get if an M/W35 wants to run M/W21E, if BOC and BEOC are combined?

[awk]

So why when it comes to the event called the British Championships (or British Age Group Championships) do Long runners wish to deny their colleagues who choose to run Short every week of the year, the opportunity to be a British Champion in their chosen event. That is their Championship just as the Long is the Long course runner's Championship.

As a regular S class runner, let's get real about this. There are some good runners in the S classes, but the best run the L. In all but name it IS the A class, and no amount of juggling with semantics will change that situation. The reason they are called L and S was because there was a technical difference between A and B. There remains the competitive difference. Long course runners are not looking to deny us, simply saying that they should get the chance to compete in the British Short/Middle Champs as well! (Equally, the British Champs should be separated from the British Age Class Champs, as has effectively happened this year for sprint and classic/long - except for 18s and 20s).

I do think the name of BOC should be changed - the implication currently being that it decides the overall British Champ as opposed to the Sprint/Middle/Classic champion, but at what is currently called BOC, we should not be deceiving ourselves - by running the S class we are opting out of the championship class for our age class. To that extent, I see little point in S class prizes/awards - I'd prefer them to go deeper in the L classes (I don't include juniors in this - they should get loads in both A and B classes, unlike the measly number so often currently awarded).

Having said that, for an event as big as the British, having age class S/B courses seems to work fine - there is enough competition to make them sufficiently interesting (although they are generally smaller in number than L classes at JK/British, contrary to the post suggesting otherwise). I like colour courses, but age classes work fine at this level.

[roadrunner]

I can't see the rationale for treating juniors and seniors differently here. M14B (for example) will generally not only be shorter than M14A but technically easier as well - so the best M14s will certainly be running the "A" course, and the winner of that is rightly the British Champion (for that age and discipline). So give the "B" course winners mementos for sure, but I don't see how they can be considered champions any more than the adult S course runners.

Incidentally, I thought that the original aspiration, given suitable areas and dates, was that BEOC and BOC should be combined: do we really need separate events just so that the best 20s or 35s can have a go at the open class and their age class?

[awk]

I can't see the rationale for treating juniors and seniors differently here. M14B (for example) will generally not only be shorter than M14A but technically easier as well - so the best M14s will certainly be running the "A" course, and the winner of that is rightly the British Champion (for that age and discipline). So give the "B" course winners mementos for sure, but I don't see how they can be considered champions any more than the adult S course runners.

Sorry - obviously didn't make it clear - that's what I meant - simply give loads of prizes/mementos to junior B classes. I didn't mean for them to be classified as champions.

Incidentally, I thought that the original aspiration, given suitable areas and dates, was that BEOC and BOC should be combined: do we really need separate events just so that the best 20s or 35s can have a go at the open class and their age class?

Yes. And, of course, anybody else. But then, I wasn't one who signed up to the original aspiration, if that is what it was/is.

[Big Jon]

BEOC & BOC are more likely to be combined if A the area is of good technical quality and B at a sensible time of year to fit into an elite orienteer's season.