changes to the 2009 fixture list

[awk]

The aim of the review should have been to push more events up to this standard, not lower them. Putting all the existing Level 3 & 4 events together leaves just as much of a lack of clarity as what is now being proposed.

Well, keeping the C4s at a lower tier than these events would certainly not have encouraged a rise in their standards!! You see putting them together as lowering the standards of the C3s. I see it as encouraging a raising of standards in the C4s.

The relatively few events that you quote are prestige events not because their event level is higher, but because of their individual brand name and the promotion surrounding it. After all, quite a lot of us would say that the Scottish 6-day was more prestigious and a better competition than most current C2s, but they are 'only' a set of C3s. As for the others - none have produced anything better than I've had at some C4s. That's not to decry those C3s, all of which I've enjoyed thoroughly, but to emphasise the quality of the C4s.

And despite reading the report I still can't figure out just what the problem was that the review was trying to fix.

Well, for the umpteenth time, because the current structure is insufficiently flexible to deal with the host of new formats, because it does little to encourage people to move up and through the system, and because in all too many classes and at all too many races, a move up the system actually tended to see a deterioration in the quality of competition in many areas, not an improvement.

Months ago I asked awk and graeme if they were sure they knew what they were doing to the event structure. If the answer is still yes, then.........

Distracted puts this perfectly. But to be absolutely clear: Yes I was (and am) sure. Unfortunately, the BOF standing committees responsible obviously do not know, as what they have produced bears little resemblance in some critical areas to what I put my name to.

[Clive Coles]

I tried the http://www.nearby.org.uk link suggested above for finding a post code for the Rowney Warren event at the weekend. Thanks for the steer Haggis.

I copied the OS map reference from the Fixlures list entry and dropped it into the Nearby post code search engine. yep ~ easy to use: it gave me a post code.

I then copied and dropped the post code into Street map and I obtained a map with an arrow directing me to ..... New Rowney Farm.

Q.E.D if you want the upwardly mobile attendees to "get lost " suggest they use Satnav to get to an event. But.... the local farmer will not thank you !

There was however a serious point to this enquiry. I have been challenging BOF for over a year regarding the desirability of having a post code as a data field for an event registration. As recently as last October I am told this data field was still one of the data fields in the beta terst version of the software that had to be completed.

It is a nice idea ~ many folk will get Tomtom for Christmas. We are therefore seeking to support a growing need.

But for a post code driven facility to work there needs to be a house very very near the car parking area. In rural locations we will cause chaos if we provide such information on our fixture registrations. In Scotland the nearest house could be 10 miles away !

I hope to goodness BOF have seen sense. This field cannot be mandatory.

[awk]

Oh, and by the way, another thing not quite right in the BOF processing*:

At our committee meeting last week, we discussed the club's National Event scheduled for September. According to the BOF guidance, it should become Level 1. However, it is not an area championship, nor any of the other championships. We can't see how it can possibly be L1 - it has to be L2, and that's the route we are taking.

National Events don't map on to L1 per se*. For instance, Burnham will be an L1 because it is the Southern Champs. That is, of course, unless there has been other rehashing.

(Later edit: I maybe should make this clear I'm referring to the document that maps old events onto new events for the transitionary year).

[Gnitworp]

Are The Area Championships to be Open, which since 1985 they have not been, i.e., can anyone win the trophies regardless of their regional allegiance?

I believe that, in the absence of Night National Events, The Night Championships have remained Open.

[madmike]

Oh, and by the way, another thing not quite right in the BOF processing:

At our committee meeting last week, we discussed the club's National Event scheduled for September. According to the BOF guidance, it should become Level 1. However, it is not an area championship, nor any of the other championships. We can't see how it can possibly be L1 - it has to be L2, and that's the route we are taking.

National Events don't map on to L1 per se. For instance, Burnham will be an L1 because it is the Southern Champs. That is, of course, unless there has been other rehashing.

My understanding is that for 2009, only, there will be national events and area champs as it is a "transition year" and that from 2010 there will only be area champs with national events consigned to history. Therefore, I think you are right according to BOF guidance it should be L1 but I suspect no one will complain if you decide it's L2. I think the transition was caused by the reluctance of a club with a national event to give it up and downgrade to L2 - mind you this is hearsay I'm repeating and there may be someone out there who actually knows why we are all geing confused?

[awk]

Of the five national events scheduled for 2009, 3 are designated as area championships, leaving only the BOKTrot and the Dale Trophy in that state of transition. As I said, as things stand at present, we're expecting to go to L2, and will aim for the event to sell itself on its own merits (weekend of racing, beautiful Dales countryside, fast terrain with ne'er a bramble in sight, some intricate contours, you know the stuff!).

[madmike]

Are The Area Championships to be Open, which since 1985 they have not been, i.e., can anyone win the trophies regardless of their regional allegiance?

I believe that, in the absence of Night National Events, The Night Championships have remained Open.

Good question, well presented! As I'm organising the first Area Champs under the new rules best I find out

I'll e-mail the rules gurus and find out and report back to the thread

[graeme]

But what about the Lakes 5 Day, Welsh 6 Day, Springtime in Shropshire , November Classic, all still attracting large fields.

Cracking good events, attracting 30-40 on distracted's course.

Although, he'd have found a bigger and stronger field at our (now downgraded) first District event in Scotland. And the added value of a street race the day before.
No doubt he'll be on the train this year.

madmike/gnitworp: If you have the good sense to venture up to Balavil, the eligibility is as it always has been...

http://www.scottish-orienteering.org/in ... ships-soc/

[Red Adder]

Here's a question for you....

If the ESRG was mandated to a task but then the Rules Committee totally overrides a core recommendation is the implementation of the ESRG recommendations by the Rules Committee constitutonal ? Lawyers could have a field day perhaps.

A cynic might feel that the designation of a T2 event as requiring a grade 2 controller in the full knowledge that there are not enough such people to allow district events to run at T2 and so forcing clubs to run at T3 was a move worthy of Machiavelli himself.

[SJC]

Well, for the umpteenth time, because the current structure is insufficiently flexible to deal with the host of new formats,

Currently there are five levels to allocate events to, ranging from the 2,000 competitors at the British and JK down to the 20 person event run out of the back of a car. How does reducing this to three somehow make the structure more flexible ?
Please explain.

[PMG]

RE National Events 2009

BOK and AIRE were given the option to retain Level 1 status for their National events for 2009 as it was felt be rather heavy handed to demand they down grade them.

BOK have retained Level 1 status, AIRE are going down to Level 2, their choice without any perceived BOF imposition.

Peter Guillaume
Fixtures Chairman

[awk]

RE National Events 2009
BOK have retained Level 1 status, AIRE are going down to Level 2, their choice without any perceived BOF imposition.

Absolutely, no pressure from BOF. We decided to go to L2, perceiving that our event did not fit in with L1 under the new guidelines, particularly as the event is late in the year, with people starting to look to 2010, and didn't want to prolong the death throes of the National event unnecessarily!

How does reducing this to three somehow make the structure more flexible ?
Please explain.

It doesn't necessarily, although very often, the more categories you have the less flexible a structure: categories are more and more precisely defined. However, what you asked was what were the aims of the ESRG, and I was answering that. If you want to know why we went for 3 levels (which is a different question), then the answer to that is because when we looked at the structure, we didn't see a need for any more: it was a byproduct of our efforts to achieve our aims, not an aim in itself. I still don't see a need for any more, although the way the 3 levels have been structured by Rules etc. is as much a nonsense to me as I gather it is to you, maybe for different reasons though!

[SeanC]

Blimey, this thread has taken off a bit

Clive Coles wrote

"As recently as last October I am told this data field " [postcode] "was still one of the data fields in the beta terst version of the software that had to be completed."

Did BOF say why this was manditory? Maybe it's going to be used for the website postcode search - you know the "give me events within 10 miles of X". X being defined as the postcode. This is how many of the event websites like anywhereyougo.com work. You have to enter a postcode so their sites event search facility works. If this is the case on the new BOF site, it won't matter if the postcode is geographically a bit inaccurate.

[NeilC]

Rules group are tasked with writing rules/guidelines for the event structure that was presented to them.

Agreed.

If any rehashing was done it was done elsewhere.

Totally and completely disagree: they have done all the rehashing, to the extent that I cannot recognise what they produced as being anything like what I agreed to.

On what basis can you disagree with this? Somebody or some group made the decision that C4s and C5s should be lumped together as Level 3. I do not know who made that decision but that was the structure that was presented to the March meeting of Rules Group and it is on that structure that the guidelines have been based.

Of course if anyone has any constructive comments on the guidelines that have been produced for THIS structure then do feel free to pass them onto your association's RG representation.

Regarding who can win trophies at the area championships my impression is that the general opinion is that these should continue to be only awarded to members of the appropriate area. A situation that if nothing else will please the person tasked with recovering the trophies for the following year's event.

[RJ]

.........Well, keeping the C4s at a lower tier (level 3) than these events (regional events) would certainly not have encouraged a rise in their standards!! You see putting them together as lowering the standards of the C3s. I see it as encouraging a raising of standards in the C4s........

I am not of the opinion that we need to raise the standard of the C4, the District event. By and large they do the job they are supposed to do. They are a District event..... not a Regional event. If you want to improve the quality of the C4, that is if it needs it, then do so and redefine it as a Regional event, and sell it as such.

The natural categorisation for events, which is what should have been done, is......

LOCAL, DISTRICT, REGIONAL, NATIONAL
Level 4, Level 3, Level, 2, Level 1.
Grade 4, Grade 3, Grade 2, Grade 1 controllers.

with the Grade 4 controller just being the planner.... perhaps someone developing their skills, learning the ropes, ready to move on to doing a Grade 3 course.

MOST (95%) of the orienteering in this country takes place at Local and District level, where the standard of the product meets the needs of the orienteers in that area. The guidelines are adequate to achieve a rough homogeneous product.

Fitting all the other styles/types of event into this is easy. Urban, City, Park, Relay, Long-O, Sprint, Medium, Short, Long or whatever..... just choose the level. A City race can just as easily be a Local Level 4 event as it can be a National Level 1 event.... you plan what you want and advertise/sell it accordingly.

I don't understand why such a chaotic mess has been created.