Is it compulsory to visit the start kite?

[Gross]

If the idea of the start site is to conceal where runners are going on their first leg

WRONG - start kite is there to mark a definative point and indicate the start of the orienteering. The last thing a good planner should be doing is planning to 'conceal' anything. Orienteering is not about 'hide & seek'

[roadrunner]

And there might be a supplementary question, is a taped route always compulsory?

I seem to recall this being a hot topic in one of IanD's club's events 3 years ago! In that case, the taped route was in the middle of the course, and for most part the areas either side were fenced and OOB so everyone followed it. But towards the end, the area to the S was unfenced, in bounds, and the best route to the next control, so many people left the taped route - and were criticised for this in the results.

According to BOF rules, quoted earlier in this thread:

3.1.8 Any part of the course where the competitor is obliged to follow a compulsory route shall be clearly and precisely indicated on the map by a dashed line.

But, unless it's at a control circle, it's very hard to identify where a dashed line becomes a solid line (is the first part of the solid line the last dash?).

[Ravinous]

I would like to see a BOF rule say "Competitors must visit the start kite" and by visit I mean run within a few metres or it. This has been a grey area for too long.
Planners should tape the route in some way. The control flag, wherever possible, should be out of sight of the pre-start. I think it unfair when some people see where other people on their course go from the start kite. It is not a level playing field. This would be in line with many European O events. Where it is impossible to have the start kite out of sight of the pre-start (maybe on open areas), the maps should be placed by the kite.
It is good planning to ensure a fair start to an orienteering race.
Day 3 at Lakeland 5 days had a start kite 75m away, untaped and saw many not run even vaguely passed it, but noted that foreign runners religiously visited it. Why should we be different?
(Having my last leg red line to the finish double circle go practically through the pre-start was probably worse than the start kite issue however)

[Mr. Furness]

someone will have to look through rules, because i definitely cannot be bothered. however i'm going to give a straight answer with an intonation that i know what i'm talking about...

i was made aware as a junior competing in elite races:
1. In britain it is not compulsory to visit the start kite (unless taped and mandatory).
2. Elsewhere in the world you DO have to visit the start kite.

I think the IOF has a rule regarding visiting the start kite, which obviously applies to international events (? could already be digging here ?). most events we brits do abroad are 'international' which is presumably why we always observe everyone going to the start flag. that would also suggest that some events in the britain should also have mandatory start kite visits. does, for example, the swedish o federation have a 'domestic' rule on this? (they probably do, and it ties in with IOF rules, how sensible!) that would be interesting to know, cause basically i think BOF just doesn't have a rule, and that is the problem. like ravinous says, that makes it a grey area. basically, always visit the start kite, its the right thing to do. (i agree with marky).

[SJC]

>>> I think the IOF has a rule regarding visiting the start kite, which obviously applies to international events.

Only if there is a compulsory taped route to it, and just about impossible to monitor without large numbers of officials.

The race starts when the timing starts, which is usually where you pick up the map.
It is nonsense to have the start triangle 100m away, and expect people to always run to it if it isn't on the best route. (and of course this 100m won't have been included in the course length measurements).
If you really want everyone to go to this point then mark the start triangle on the map where the race actually starts, and make this point the first control on every course. That way there can never be any argument.

[seabird]

If the idea of the start site is to conceal where runners are going on their first leg

WRONG - start kite is there to mark a definative point and indicate the start of the orienteering. The last thing a good planner should be doing is planning to 'conceal' anything. Orienteering is not about 'hide & seek'

Gross, I was referring to the start site, i.e. start lines - not the start kite. Neither was I making a recommendation, - merely commenting on one of the reasons people place the start lines where they do.

[Domhnull Mor]

This was not something I had thought much about until a couple of years ago when the guy starting just in front of me got pulled up by a marshal for not going to the start kite (which was by a stone wall which meant running from the track where the actual start was to the wall and then straight back to the track again..).

Just had a look at the Swedish rules. They say much the same as has been already said namely that "if the start point is not at the start line then the route to it should be taped. The organisers should ensure that competitors pass the start point." Seems fair and simple.

[Gnitworp]

It's that old chestnut 'enforceability'; and there's only one way of absolutely enforcing anything in orienteering, and that is to make people insert their e-card into a control unit; nothing else is enforceable, especially if runners are not wearing race numbers. It wasn't me guvner.

[EddieH]

I dislie being accused of cheating MN particularly as I believe in being totally honest all the time.

The Scottish Relays was far from black and white, and was I am afraid a result of a planning/controlling error. I did run along the tapes to the position of the start triangle the map - the tapes carried on into the forest. While running the long loop I had planned my route and didn't change it when I found tapes leading away from the start.

Not only do we have this debate in which clearly noone knows what they are supposed to do, but small errors do occur in planning controlling. Ideally these should be removed but ambiguity in what you are required to do always causes me mental concern at the time and I make inevitably snap decision.

Much more frequent a problem than the start kite is lack of clarity in where one is allowed to go - this subject could get many more pages than just the start kite one.

[Gnitworp]

Shove a control unit in where you want people to go, and they'll go there. I guarantee it.

[Harley]

Shove a control unit in where you want people to go, and they'll go there. I guarantee it.

Not necessarily. At a fairly recent midlands event the maps were placed adjacent to the start boxes and the start kite and the start control placed 50m up the wooded hill. Needless to say, several people, myself included navigated straight from the map boxes to our first control without visiting the start control and box. Doh!
We eventually got a start time from the check boxes, suffering a consequent time penalty (3-4 mins in my case).

[Marco Polo]

Are more determined measures needed, maybe you have to put the map box by the start kite, having the map before punching the start isn't how all clubs or events want to go anyway.





On a more serious note, the message to me as a novice planner is to plan so that alternative routes are not possible or certainly not beneficial. Taping isn't difficult but it is an extra thing to do or forget etc if it really isn't neccesary.

M

[johnloguk]

Getting the map before the start punch is bizarre, that is one variation I never thought would happen. It goes against everything orienteering is about surely, what was to stop someone standing by the start punch sorting out their routes and getting into the map before punching (especially if the start punch wasn't in full view of everyone at the start)?

It is down to the planner to make sure things like this don't happen, but you will never be able to legislate against a small minority who make a barmy decision. Am I the only planner to stand by the start with my controller, utterly gobsmacked to see someone run back through the start boxes to their first control when it was the barmiest route choice in history?

[AndyO]

johnloguk wrote "Getting the map before the start punch is bizarre..." maybe, but we do so regularly in the north-east at local events using Emit where we have unmanned starts. Don't do that at district events, though

I agree you can't legislate for runners making crazt decisions with route choice. As the CompassPoint ad says "Ever done a 180?" [/list]

[Gross]

At a fairly recent midlands event the maps were placed adjacent to the start boxes and the start kite and the start control placed 50m up the wooded hill. Needless to say, several people, myself included navigated straight from the map boxes to our first control without visiting the start control and box. Doh!
We eventually got a start time from the check boxes, suffering a consequent time penalty (3-4 mins in my case).

WRONG.... you should have been DQ'd... makes the sport a bit of a joke I reckon