WOC Classic Q

[distracted]

I reckon that with a time recorded in the card, it would be fair to interrogate the SI unit.

Exactly my thoughts G - if you have received the light/bleep confirmation from the SI unit then, according to the rules, you have punched correctly.

It seems more than unduly harsh to dq someone for what seems to be an occasional bug in the technology, especially when it seems that there will be evidence in the unit to confirm that Oli was at the correct control. That's at least 2 people affected by this in major competitions now - so you'd hope the guys at SI would do something to work out why it's happening and to rectify it.

Otherwise you'd have to say the validity of using SI at major events is questionable if it is unreliable in nature and can lead to "blunders" like this.

[housewife]

I beleive the rules stop the organisers from reinstating Oli from evidence from interrogating the box. However, if you asked all of the other national teams if they would mind if Oli was reinstated, the majority would rather have all the best people running, than have someone disqualifed for a silly reason.

[bendover]

its total balls up and makes the sport look like a complete farce.

the evidence that Oli ran a fair race is potentially accessible, and its not allowed to be used. what a joke. The athletes from all nations should show solidarity (in the same way that the Tour De France riders do every so often) and refuse to race until the IOF sort out the rules for this situation. otherwise this will just happen again and again.

[Gross]

I reckon the simplest and fairest solution available is to allow 15runners + Oli from his heat to qualify for the final.

You can't do that. Rules are rules one way or another. Either Oli qualifies by right or he doesn't. If the box was interogated and Oli reinstated then number 15 from his heat would need to drop out.

Remember at Czech WOC that Yvette was DQ'd because she punched slightly out of the box... so punching problems are not new.

The only way to prevent this happening in future is to use a system that is basically foolproof... at present SI is not good enough.

[the duncan]

this is why i noping hate SI,

i got dsq'd at the british relays, some poor girl told me i had miss punched, and being quite pumped up after doing first leg i told her to nope off. i knew i'd punched everything.

i sent my si card to Martin Stone, and he looked at it, and the SI unit, and found i had been there.

SI is rubbish. really sorry for Oli, that is so harsh.
bloody germans (it is german isn't it?) if not i appologise, and abuse who ever did make it!!

[granny m]

GUTTED for Oli...
This is EXACTLY what happened to me in last year's world cup final...in fact I also had the people manning the control and the girl I was with vouch for the fact that I'd been there and although they retrieved the SI box which indicated I'd punched, the RULES did not allow them to reinstate me. Their argument is that we have punched too quickly so the electronic handshake between SI Card and control doesn't complete. If you punch too quickly you're cheating (after all their timing is so accurate that you might just get an advantage over someone else by 1 billinoth of a second. NOT!)SI claim that their equipment does not fail and that you only get a beep and a flash when the handshake is complete. BOLLOCKS to that! In fact we are definitely not the only 2 that this has happened to. Following my misfortune I had LOADS of people tell me similar stories. At the World Cup year all the internationl runners would have been happy for me to be reinstated as I'm sure is the case with Oli but the rules are the rules....maybe someone in the IOF should have a bit of a rethink about how much they rely on the technology....
In fact, I've packed my bags already and I'm off to Denmark to lobby...or at least to support our guys.
See you Tues night for some beers Dids??

[Neil M35]

GUTTED for Oli...
SI claim that their equipment does not fail and that you only get a beep and a flash when the handshake is complete. BOLLOCKS to that!

Bollocks indeed. This has been SIs story for years - that you have visited the control but you didn't wait for the beep. They say that it is not possible to get the beep and not register a punch. If it was true it would still be unfair but it has happened to so many people that they have to acknowledge that there is a problem.

It has happened to me once - in an Interland match. I was gutted - although I imagine not quite as much as Oli.

[EriOL]

I'm always a bit suspicious about people who "know" that they heard the beep, saw the flash and checked the controlcode on all 39 controls on the course. What kind of human beings are you? When I finish a course I never know that I did all those things. I just assume I did because that's what I usually do and have been training for, but I don't remember every single moment of my race.

My trust in the SI-system and it's communication protocol is 100% intact. I'm still waiting for the proof of anyone getting the flash and beep but no registration in the SI-card. Did you see the video from Tiomila with the poor norwegian runner mispunching the TV-control? Pretty obvious from picture and sound that he did a sloppy punch in a stressed situation and was justly disqualified.

The only real technical problem with SI is that the radio-controls are sometimes slower to punch at than normal units (for whatever reason). Informing the runners about this fact is in my opinion a measure that should be taken.

[Kitch]

Yeah Eriol you're probably right

because these people are not 100% committed, 100% focussed, 100% on the ball - they just bumble round the course in a day-dream, it is only the World Championships after all.

Oli is probably lying.

[Kitch]

Whichever moderator removed the words
You Prick
from my last post can put them back

If Eriol Is going to brand my team mates and friends as liars then I am going to call him or her a Prick

thanks very much

either that or you can remove Eriols post which I find wholly offensive

[the duncan]

i'm with you Kitch,

i KNOW when i got done i had punched everything, it was a relay, so i was doubly cautious.

i personally check every code/punch when i'm racing, sure there are not many dumb sods who don't!

[granny m]

OK, there is no hard evidence out there which is why things have never been taken further...but I have a lot of respect for many of the international orienteers that have told me similar stories.

However, has anyone actually ever tried to punch without getting a beep and a flash with a new card?
You have to have reflexes that would be better used as an international sprinter, not an international orienteer!

Otherwise, I am an SI girl as opposed to EMIT.
If there was only a better form of back up / check!

[Kitch]

there is always the control unit.

[Gross]

the only reason they don't accept checking the units in the forest is the hassle value - not because they can't.

I think David May is on the jury for WOC so maybe he can give us some feedback later on... I also think he's one of the main people responsible for making the rules up. (and if it wasn't David May then it was David Rosen... they are sharing the job)

[Neil M35]

I'm always a bit suspicious about people who "know" that they heard the beep, saw the flash and checked the controlcode on all 39 controls on the course.

If it was just me I would be inclined to agree with you. When it happened to me I was pretty sure I had punched correctly and I am usually fairly diligent about it, but I'm prepared to admit I could have made a mistake. But there are lots of people who claim this has happened, and if only one of them is right then the system is flawed.

Even if SI are right and Oli didn't wait for the beep, is this fair? He went to the right control, he punched, he believes he heard a beep/saw a flash and went on his way. The card shows he punched but not where he punched, the control unit would show that he had been there. With no backup or readout on the SI card Oli has no feedback other than the beep/flash - if there was he could check and repunch. Does he deserve to be disqualified? Absolutely not. And with Emit there wouldn't be a problem.