Mini Relays

[Mrs H]

Haha - I hope he has some credentials to support his opinions. I know for a fact that Stodgetta has dome a great deal of work with her club juniors and if she says there's a problem then there's a problem.

[NeilC]

This year's JK mini-relay followed a similar pattern to the BOC relay in that there was effectively only one route that the competitors could take so limited gaffling was introduced on the first two laps by using different features along the route. Effort was made to ensure that these features looked very different (fence bend, thicket, pit etc) and that the codes were very different. The first control and the last two were not gaffled. The results suggest that there was not a significant problem with this format even though 3 (out of around 60) competitors did mis-punch.

[SJC]

This year's JK mini-relay followed a similar pattern to the BOC relay in that there was effectively only one route that the competitors could take so limited gaffling was introduced on the first two laps by using different features along the route. Effort was made to ensure that these features looked very different (fence bend, thicket, pit etc) and that the codes were very different. The first control and the last two were not gaffled. The results suggest that there was not a significant problem with this format even though 3 (out of around 60) competitors did mis-punch.

Which seems to confirm that the courses were too hard.
Also the control numbering wasn't appear to have been ideal with the use of sequences of numbers rather than random control codes.
>>> 3[163] 4[164] 5[165] 6[173] 7[167] 8[168] 9[169]
Not difficult to guess which control caused the disqualification

[Ant W]

Ah but how would you decide when stubble becomes a beard? I think an emergency meeting of Rules group (or whatever it is now) is required

Andy, I would introduce a handicap system based on beard length. Ideally it would attract ZZ Top to compete.

[AndyC]

Ah but how would you decide when stubble becomes a beard? I think an emergency meeting of Rules group (or whatever it is now) is required

Andy, I would introduce a handicap system based on beard length. Ideally it would attract ZZ Top to compete.

Apologies for trivialising an important topic but Frank Beard (the ZZ Top drummer and the beardless one) has to be well over 5ft tall wouldn't that give him a massive advantage in M60?
On the real subject I have passed this link to next years BOC organisers so they are aware and can learn from someone else's issues

[Stodgetta]

Just to pick up on a few points since my original post, mostly to do with the relay in general, not the BOC in particular...

1. The timing of the start - I realise it's to showcase the minis as far as possible, and to stop them being trampled, but it only stops the mass start from being trampled. Poor Charlotte had the mass start for the mixed & junior Ad Hoc courses (70 runners) chasing her to the start flag, so no safer for her, and it must be safer to run the minis while there are other orienteers in the forest (one of my parents was horrified to hear her 7 year old daughter had been "helped" by a well meaning member of the public telling her that "there's a whatsit over there" when she was standing at the 5 way junction working out what to do next, & off she went towards the horizon... Mum is more than a bit reluctant to let her out of her sight again thinking about what could have happened).

2. The range of juniors taking part in the relay - as I said in my original post that was slightly misquoted by Jon M, very few clubs have 3 competent TD2 under 12s at the British Champs, so will be making up numbers with inexperienced juniors to get a team out & have a go. I had 11 TD2 competent runners age 7-10 (6 of those age 10 were M&W12), and a W14 (running n/c & injured on last leg to make up numbers). They have all run relays before, they all knew about gaffling and have practised gaffled courses. I have worked hard with them to get them to this stage. Not everyone is so lucky. There were other 7 year olds out there running, & the majority of runners will have been 10 and under rather than 11 or 12 (only 1 in 6 M/W12s will have been 12 at BOC).

3. Technical difficulty of the courses - TD2 becomes TD3 if even just one of the legs is harder than TD2, only one of the legs needs to be TD2 to have a TD2 course, the rest can be TD1. The gaffling has the effect of increasing the technical difficulty. A full-on TD2 course with 3 gaffles running through it is too much, especially with gaffles on the first leg, & gaffles that aren't left/right decisions. A TD1.5 with 1 gaffle would be much safer & fairer, & the most deserving teams will still win. It still needs to be a proper orienteering course & not just a cross country run around the field... (talking to the same 7 year old after her run, number 5 wasn't her problem, she said the circle was to the side of the path, so she knew the control was to the side of the path, so she just went to look for it. Simples! However, she wouldn't have run off towards the horizon had the control after the 5 way junction been easily visible and not beyond the next path junction out of sight on a vegetation boundary).

4. Most importantly, the relay needs to be inclusive and fun, to encourage the children and their parents to come back for more. Yes, it's the British Relay Championships, but it's not the Mens Open, it's the mini relay! The aim shouldn't be to try & trick the juniors into making mistakes (letting down your team mates as a senior is bad enough, but the disappointment of disqualifying the whole team as a junior...). If the juniors stop wanting to orienteer...

So my plea: Start them later (why not start the W60s earlier to give them all a better chance of being back in time for the prize giving?), plan courses that are the appropriate technical difficulty (too easy rather than too hard), not set out to trick juniors into making mistakes, and aim for everyone to finish with a smile and not with a dsq.

Cath.

[14stoneflyer]

Interesting discussion this, and one in which I have an interest, both as a club Captain, and as a father of a child who struggled at this relay. Indeed, my views on this have changed as a result of reading this thread (I started off in the "they should have known better" camp).

I think the key comments were from Auk ("It's not the standards that are paramount, it's the children, and the standards should be written FOR them") and Stodgetta.

Essentially, if more than the odd one or two runners mispunches at this level, then the course is too difficult, as we are providing a significant number of kids with unwanted disappointment.

Likewise, if the mini-relay involves no thought and is just a precession of runners then I think a number of the kids leave without the feeling of achievement that is the reason for their return to do more orienteering. In this case the course is too easy.

What we want is a set of courses that are a mental (and physical) challenge for the vast majority of our young contestants, but are completed successfully by the vast majority of of our young contestants.

Sadly I have to therefore agree with some of the previous posters that, baed solely on the results, this BOC relay was too difficult (sorry planner- I thought the courses looked great too!).

Now comes the important bit - WHY were the courses too difficult? In my view it was not simply the technical difficulty. For example, I have seen my child complete much more difficult courses than this without issue. So what was it particularly about this set of courses?

The mispunches appeared to me to be related to two separate issues:

1. Gaffling the first control, with one control point for a small number of contestants being both more difficult, and further away, than the majority's first control
2. Gaffling the more difficult controls later in the courses that were off paths and not particularly obviously visible from paths except from correct location.

So, my advice, for what it is worth, is that we should continue with gaffling on mini-relays (to make sure that the contestants get that feeling that the course required some thought and was not just a cross country run) but that this gaffling should be on the easier controls only (i.e. those on obvious path junctions for example) and never on the first control. This will discourage carefree following, and encourage the thinking and control number checking that we want to instill, but hopefully without leading to course failures.

To end on a positive note: although our mini-relay Team did not do well, they have all told me they had a great time and will be back - so thanks to all involved for providing us with a great day out.

The 14 stone flyer

[andypat]

I tend to agree with Graeme on this. I cant see a really fair way of gaffling on TD2, and his suggestion (from the Scottish) that they "could" be gaffled, but in practice avoiding it generally, seems reasonable to me for this level of relay. In my experience I dont generally come across a lot of other controls on my relay legs, but on a TD2 course, the competitors must surely see most of the controls, resulting in a lot of checking and hesitation.

I imagine it must have been a very confident M/W 12 that didnt stop to check the first Control 1 on their way to the further away one, giving a clear advantage to those who actually had the nearer control. And as others have suggested, there simply arent enough genuine TD2 control sites for multiple gaffles, tempting planners into harder control placements.

For me the difference about the relay is the excitement of the head to head race. You wont hear me complaining that my relay course was too easy or too short. Bring on the mixed sprint relays...

[EddieH]

As a rule I always try to site the kite on a TD2 course in the direction the runners will go from any junction.

Clearly this cannot be done with gaffling (unless one lot is supposed to ignore a control not theirs, which as a system has been thoroughly discouraged in this thread). So how do you site the controls so that gaffling is strictly fair?

No gaffling for me. relays are about racing - why should an introduction to relays not be very very easy. After all nowadays some major relays seem to be largely TD3 for the adult courses.

[SJC]

there simply arent enough genuine TD2 control sites for multiple gaffles, tempting planners into harder control placements.

You don't need complex gaffling - just one or two control sites difference between the courses is sufficient to make the juniors realise that they can't just follow everybody else.

The mini relay has been successful for many years. Let's not go changing the principles of it just because one event has got it wrong.

I imagine it must have been a very confident M/W 12 that didn't stop to check the first Control 1 on their way to the further away one, giving a clear advantage to those who actually had the nearer control.

This would have applied to a member of every team so is fair, and isn't it right that the confident M/W12 who is reading the map does save time by not stopping to check every control they come across?

[King Penguin]

On the basis of all the posts here, a "fair" gaffle would seem to be control 3 on Stodgetta's first map , if the alternative were a control part way along the alternative path to the SE. Similarly, control 6 if one control on each of the two near-parallel paths.
As there are only 2 alternatives on each of these, it would have to be ensured that each team only had one runner on the same option as all other teams (with 2 on the other option) to ensure total course covered is identical over the three legs. This still allows for mixing up of which leg in each team has the "odd" option, so each team, for example, has one leg doing each of options AA, AB, BA, but in a different order.

[Top cat]

With reference to junior relays - can anyone tell me why there are no TD4 (light green) courses available to juniors.

There is a huge gap between orange & green.
Would it not be possible for M/W 18 to be green, green & light green?
In the JK the M/W48 could also incorporate a light green course. Possibly green, light green & orange. For M/W 16 who have just moved up from M/W 14 it would be a much better option.

The best 18's would still win and new 16's would be able to join in with confidence.

[graeme]

[it's not the standards that are paramount, it's the children, and the standards should be written FOR them.

And who could disagree.
Trouble is, the standards you'd write for top notch M12s wanting to be British Champion are completely incompatible with the standards you'd write for 7-year olds who normally do a string course.
I also remember that the mini-relay once was pretty much a string-course relay. But when I read the guidelines, it is now much closer to M/W12 BRC. I don't know if this was deliberate policy, or just rule-writing mission creep. Since BOF are rewriting the rules again, I guess we should ask.

EDIT: I just emailed Helen@BOF and she's going to pass the issue on the EC&C. So no more comments about control-hiding in long grass please.

[awk]

[quote="graeme]Trouble is, the standards you'd write for top notch M12s wanting to be British Champion are completely incompatible with the standards you'd write for 7-year olds who normally do a string course. I also remember that the mini-relay once was pretty much a string-course relay. But when I read the guidelines, it is now much closer to M/W12 BRC. I don't know if this was deliberate policy, or just rule-writing mission creep. Since BOF are rewriting the rules again, I guess we should ask.[/quote]

Fair comment. I suspect rule-writing mission creep, but, as you say, the question needs asking. The aim surely should remain (as it was at outset) an introduction to relays - thus the name - with the M/W14 classes aimed at those who are at the top end. Yes, of course one will get the odd top M/W12 - not least because of the difficulty of making the numbers match the classes - but they aren't who the race is about.

[SJC]

Top notch M12s normally run TD3 courses so the mini relay is a level easier than they are used to running.

Given the pressure of the relays, and the need to include all the M/W10s as well, then the mini-relay is best set at TD1.5 if such a thing exists.