Colour Coded Course Lengths

[andypat]

Glad to see you're still participating in the discussion Grahame - believe me I know how hard it is to put yourself out there - you shouldn't let some criticism, however well intended put you off. In case you haven't already gathered, the concern (for those that have one) isnt so much about the level of event, its that the courses were unnecessarily assigned colours that may have suggested a different experience to that which you planned for.

I'm pretty certain if the courses had been described as long TD5, medium TD5 etc this thread would have been a lot shorter, and you wouldnt have had to worry about any colour coded guidelines.

As for this:

As to your comment about your son not being up to TAY yellows, what a stupid comment, I'm not the only planner in TAY and every event is different.

I'm not going to take it personally - you're well entitled to have a go although I was attempting to be a little light hearted- but while you are right that every event is different, every "yellow" course should show a lot of similarities and I'm not sure the comments below about using the colours "fairly loosely at local events" would fill me with confidence. Graeme and Greywolf have more or less said the same - and they are both much more experienced than me.

[Clive Coles]

As regulars will know I am a guideline rather than rule person ~ that's why I continue to advocate flexibility over what MUST be done. I believe the experience is what make orienteers come back ; not slavish adhearance to rules. I prefer the judgement as to what may be permitted to be made by the planner and confirmed by the controller.

BUT what I have picked out from other comments in this thread is that one event being disected had a high number of retirals. That I do find worrying as that would suggest to me some folk did not have a good experience.

I have only retired twice in my orienteering life. I may be slow and an "old fogey", but I gain satisfaction from finishing a course. That's why I keep going. My two retirals however stick in my memory.

I pre-entered a level 2 event last year and therefore paid my money up-front. Then, just before the day I went down with a bug as well as needing to cope with problems with my knee. I was not in a good frame of mind. A sensible man would have just stayed in bed ~ instead , as I had paid, I turned out on a cold damp morning and decided to change my pre-entered course and just walk round the orange course that was on offer. A nice bit of healthy exercise !

A mistake ~ the course to my mind was more technical than guidelines ~ more of a light green, even green in places. After struggling through bramble and brashings through a grotty bit of forest I was presented with the chance of cutting across a nice inviting piece of white forest. A good orange leg ~ an opportunity to cut corners and by so doing avoid a deeply rutted muddy path run. The forest was just as mapped ~ good runability, good visability. I spotted the next control only to be confronted by a deep UNMAPPED ditch which my brain at least judged to be uncrossable. I retraced my steps to the muddy path ~ walked round the two sides of the rectangle to reach the control ( a road crossing). Then ~ totally pissed off I walked up the road to the finish and retired.I had already been out for over an hour ~ I was only just about half way..

What really hit home ~ after all my years of orienteering I had actually retired on an orange ~ it wasn't even a technical course. Has the time really come to hang up those O shoes ?

I think planners and controllers should be concerned by the number of retirals. They need to question why. For someone like me this was just a bad day ~ I will probably get over the defeat. But for newcomers this experience might put them off for life.

My moment of truth was a quality level 2 event ~ It had the best burgers I have purchased at an event in recent years. With good catering and facilities even disgruntled regulars can be appeased I would however be more concerned if a level D event ( targeted for newcomers) had a high number of retirees.

The ultimate responsibility for the quality of the experience rests in my opinion with the event officials not the rule book. I wonder how many more committee hours are going to be spent redrafting rules.

[housewife]

I think quite a few of the retirals are due to si issues, rather than people not being able to make it around. The one person I know who retired did so as she was injured.

[SeanC]

Some of these problems would be resolved if we allowed a (say) 10 minute time penalty per missing control rather than disqualifying someone. You can set this in autodownload. This would be ideal at level D events where without controlling, guidelines are inevitably going to be ignored (or deliberately for good reasons).

Disqualification = failure. Failure = people feel miserable. Miserable people = don't come back.

[Red Adder]

I'm afraid I have to take issue with Grahame's views of guidelines. They are not there to impose a bureaucratic straight-jacket on the sport - but help both those running and competing in an event to achieve some sort of consistency across events. It is important at even a Cat D event if you describe something as a Green that it is a Green so that people know what in terms of physical and technical challenge they can expect.

Before anyone sets out to plan surely they must consult the guidelines - to understand what is meant for TD 3 for example so you don't end up with a 900m leg across rough terrain to a pit 100m for the nearest attack point or whatever on your Orange.

In doing so they can also take in the expected winning times and adjust the course labels accordingly - or decide not to use them at all. In this case it sounds that you designed a Blue and a Brown, and had they be names as such no one would have batted an eyelid.

I started planning on an occasional basis long before guidelines were introduced and was happily going my own way until my "assistant" gave me a dressing down about not conforming strictly to them in terms of either TD or W/T. Funnily since I came in line I plan better courses (so the feedback to me suggests), have few if any complaints and relations with the controllers are far easier - ie everyone is happier and I'm a lot less stressed.

[Marco Polo]

Sean,

Of course, this is already allowed; but I agree, it would be a good format to encourage for level D cross country events.

[Grahame N]

To andypat
Sorry. I overstepped the mark. Got a bit carried away in my rant.

I’m sure Greywolf and others are correct – if we cannot guarantee that the guidelines are being met (and that includes Green and Blue being TD5) then the simple solution is to abandon the colour code system and use a more descriptive method.

To Greywolf
(Sorry I havnt got time just now to work out how to insert quotes)
Yes for us it was a huge turnout. As I said earlier, at another local event I planned we had 8 runners.

To Sunlit Forres
Very sorry to hear you have an ICD, and you are quite right to say "please tell us what's in the tin". I’m sure if you had considered coming to Craig a Barns and you read the pre-event info and noticed that the 4.8km Green had 300m (1000ft) of climb then you would quickly have worked out that it was going to be tough.

[SeanC]

Your right about the colour coded guidelines being a straightjacket though. I'm sure it's not the intention, but it's the only template out there in regular use for forest orienteering.

Not only are they too restrictive (eg white length between 1 and 1.5km) but they don't really work IMHO for adult newcomers, adult runners who are happy to remain at TD1-3 level and juniors who don't fit the white to light green progression. At local events, junior courses organised by those experienced at organising junior orienteering would I'm sure be much more successful.

Clubs, especially small clubs, need a lot more help. This could be more "good practice" guidance. that is an alternative to just doing a colour coded event, but really we need development officers with time not just at region level but at the club level. I don't know how we get the money for this.

For juniors I'd like to see specialist coaches/organisers at events doing some really inspiring stuff, and personally I'd be quite happy to pay for this. I doubt whether the colour coded system alone will maintain my son's interest with the competition from all the other things on offer these days.

Hey, I must cheer up. KNC tomorrow in Canterbury around the ancient streets using a sprint map.

[greywolf]

Not only are they too restrictive (eg white length between 1 and 1.5km)...

only if you don't read them The range quoted for White is 1.0 - 1.9 km and then there is a note saying: (c) For the courses of Technical Difficulty 1, 2 and 3 it is more important that the course is of the correct TD than of the correct length. It will often be the case that the nature of the terrain forces the course length away from the precise course length ratios given above.

not sure how they make straightjackets round your way but this one seems to have a fair amount of room for manoeuvre..

[SeanC]

woops, I was rushing that post out before the test finished. Needs a good 5 minutes to hunt down the guidelines on the BOF website.

OK, straightjacket and restrictive are OTT words, but I am trying to get people to think about doing something different instead of just doing what we've always done. People tend to follow guidance even if it has caveats*. I think orienteering could be a whole lot more interesting for juniors, though I'm not sure exactly how. Could do with some more guidelines maybe.

*or the spirit of guidance it seems

[Sunlit Forres]

To Sunlit Forres
Very sorry to hear you have an ICD, and you are quite right to say "please tell us what's in the tin". I’m sure if you had considered coming to Craig a Barns and you read the pre-event info and noticed that the 4.8km Green had 300m (1000ft) of climb then you would quickly have worked out that it was going to be tough.

Don't be sorry for me Grahame. I'm completely delighted to have one because it means I can keep orienteering knowing that I'm not going to end up in a heap somewhere and cause organisers no end of bother! 4.8 Km and 300 metres of climb wouldn't have stopped me entering if I had no idea what the terrain was like. The "Green" designation would have suggested to me that it was a 'fast' forest. If the climb was steady over forgiving terrain it would present no problems - walk up the slopes and run down. It starts getting tense for me when the climbs are steep and rough.

BTW - Don't take any of this thread personally. The event was a Tay event, not a Grahame N event. Being part of a club means that things get worked out together, and the event becomes a club responsibility. In most cases any anomoly like this would get spotted by someone. It looks as though it's been missed in this case as can happen with a small (but vibrant and proactive) club like TAY. Hey, this happens from time to time. No harm in learning from it though.

[superstartradesman]

BTW - Don't take any of this thread personally. The event was a Tay event, not a Grahame N event. Being part of a club means that things get worked out together, and the event becomes a club responsibility. In most cases any anomoly like this would get spotted by someone. It looks as though it's been missed in this case as can happen with a small (but vibrant and proactive) club like TAY. Hey, this happens from time to time. No harm in learning from it though.

And as chair of TAY, let me contribute a few comments:

1. It's great that so many people enjoyed the event (while I was standing on the touchline of a rugby pitch in several blizzards - at least I'd have been moving if I'd been at Craig a'Barns)
2. Thanks to everyone for the constructive comments - this is timely given we have been updating our Event Organisers' and Planners' Manual to ensure that all the little things that help towards quality assurance and safety are documented and not forgotten about; and that best practice and relevant sources of information to consult are clearly defined.
3. It's also very reassuring to read some of those who weren't at the event, but who have been commenting on this thread, recognise the potential negative effect that comments made without first hand evidence or awareness of context could have on volunteers. There is a fine line between constructive and destructive discussion, and in my experience Nopesport has a track record of both, unfortunately.

[EddieH]

Interesting what a furore has been made because the courses were so overlong.

Yet the same weekend I notice a small level C event where Alan Velecky (is it fair to say 20+% behind top elite?) won blue in 38 minutes. My rough in the head calculation suggests that ths course was therefore about half the length dictated by the guidelines, except of course that at the same time as giving fairly clear time targets the rules also give a range of distances which completely fail to account for areas as fast as Friston, or as slow as some.

Anyway no-one has complained about this event or any of the majority of level C events where the course lengths do not conform to the guidelines.

Why does it matter? Well maybe because when the lengths are correct, people are often so surprised that they complain

[DaveR]

I wasn't at the Craig a'Barns race, although I'm now sorry to have missed it as it sounds to have been a great race.

None of the comments below refer to the Craig a'Barns race, and I hope Grahame emerges from the other side of what must feel like a NopeStorm with a smile on his face

I think the comments about "please tell us what's in the tin" are the vital ones for all races, after that I'd want to give planners and controllers as much freedom as possible to come up with interesting formats and courses.

I do think it is vital that if courses are labelled as White, Yellow, Orange or Light Green that they stick very closely to the required technical standard.

Sticking with the Colour Coded system, I'd also like to put in a word for Barry Elkington's excellent series of "Advice on planning a White Course" etc which I've linked below. These are really good guides and particularly good for reminding experienced orienteers what is required for the easier courses and how careful you have to be in planning them.


http://www.britishorienteering.org.uk/images/uploaded/downloads/planners_whitecourses.pdf
http://www.britishorienteering.org.uk/images/uploaded/downloads/planners_yellowcourses.pdf
http://www.britishorienteering.org.uk/images/uploaded/downloads/planners_orangecourses.pdf
http://www.britishorienteering.org.uk/images/uploaded/downloads/planners_lightgreencourses.pdf
http://www.britishorienteering.org.uk/images/uploaded/downloads/planners_greenandblackcourses.pdf

[SJC]

My rough in the head calculation suggests that the course was therefore about half the length dictated by the guidelines.

Alan Velecky 6.1km in 38 minutes.
Assume M21 Elite competitor can manage 5 mins / km on the same area.
For a 57 minute winning time on Brown, the Brown course would be 11.4 km.
Blue course should then be (0.56/0.85)*11.4 = 7.5 km, so less than 25% longer and within the 5.5 to 7.5 km range given.