Tankersley - Middle distance - disqualifications

[mister blobs]

Although ISOM 2000 does not identify olive green settlement as OOB, I think most people's interpretation is that it is OOB. Or are we saying that we should overprint all OOB settlements with black vertical stripes for permanent OOB - isn't olive green enough?

My interpretation of olive green has been that it's permanently out of bounds on ISSOM maps, but go-able on ISOM unless marked otherwise with vertical purple or black lines. The definition for 729 (purple vertical lines) underlines this: "An out-of-bounds area, see also symbol 528, is shown with vertical stripes". So, no, olive green is not enough on ISOM.

As I understand it the legend on the middle distance did say that the olive green was out of bounds but the same area was used for BNC the night before and there was no legend on that map. Does that mean that, technically, the olive green was in-bounds on the Saturday night but OOB a few hours later on Sunday morning?

[nooomember]

Go on Nooomember, make a complaint, and let us know how you get on. Keep us posted!

Well Nooomember, have you complained yet and put your money where your mouth is?

Why should anyone have to complain, or indeed pay, when anyone clearly breaks the rules or should be disqualified?
And it shouldnt make any difference whether in breaking the rule gained any advantage or not, that is irrelevent.

[SeanC]

Because those are the rules.

[madmike]

Go on Nooomember, make a complaint, and let us know how you get on. Keep us posted!

Well Nooomember, have you complained yet and put your money where your mouth is?

Why should anyone have to complain, or indeed pay, when anyone clearly breaks the rules or should be disqualified?
And it shouldnt make any difference whether in breaking the rule gained any advantage or not, that is irrelevent.

But would he be disqualified? I tend to think there are other options more relevant to this discussion if someone was to raise a protest/complaint against him.

If Duncan were to be disqualified then he could, I venture to suggest, counter complain/protest that the course was unfair due to the mapping. If, as seems likely to me, a jury upheld such a protest, at a higher level event then the course would be voided spoiling things for everyone (is that what you want?). On the otherhand, at a lower level event a controller might, quite sensibly and pragmatically, decide to remove this leg as it is fundamentally unfair. However, given Duncan gained no advantage and the (arguable) unfairness of the leg - why not just let sleeping dogs lie unless some complete pedant (or even a troll) raises the issue formally as Duncan losing time did not fundamentally alter the situation at the front end of the race and nobody died.

Much better to highlight the issue for planners and controllers of future events rather than dwell on a needless and unjustifiable disqualification. That way something positive can come from this.

[AndyC]

Playing devil's advocate for the second time this week I could answer nooomember with a quotation " all that is needed for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing" -not that I regard Duncan as evil in any way
Actually knowing Duncan slightly I suspect that were he dsq'd he'd shrug and accept it BUT what about the others that made the same error and haven't been identified or been honest enough to admit it?

[andy]

1 person cares, 1 person wants a DSQ.

move on..?

[madmike]

I second Andy's motion

[babs f]

Well, you learn something new every day!

I'm not an expert on ISOM or ISSOM standards, but in all of my (relatively short) orienteering career, I had always believed olive green to mean settlements AND OOB.

A quick survey of the maps from my recent events shows the HOC maps of the Lickeys, the NOC map of Sherwood Forest and the BOK map of Brierley all just say "settlement", so does that mean that I could have gone via the churchyard at Lickey if I wanted to?

NGOC maps vary. Their recent map of Crickley Hill says "private land - out of bounds", making it very clear. A couple more of their maps say "settlement OOB" and the map for the New Year's Day event at Parkend doesn't have a legend. It's fairly important in the Forest of Dean since there are many isolated houses and gardens surrounded by forest and the gardens aren't always enclosed.

When newcomers come to HOC events, I usually remember to tell them that black stripes, purple stripes and olive green all mean out of bounds, while wondering to myself whether we really need 3 different symbols.

[AndyC]

At Ludlow I found myself running on an indistinct (on the ground as well as on the map) path through an Olive Green Churchyard to a control within the Olive Green.


MrsH chance to plug springtime in Shropshire presented to you with a smile

[ba-ba]

PS it looks like Baba got confused there too, wonder whether that was the mapping too?

nope, that was just me being a colossal pleb - Had issues leaving that control (#11) on Sat night as well.
I ended up way south and shouted at someone that they were in the olive green, when actually they were (probably) in the rough open bit S of the Olive green. Obviously, the north route through the houses was by far the best route for that leg.

[roadrunner]

I'm not an expert on ISOM or ISSOM standards, but in all of my (relatively short) orienteering career, I had always believed olive green to mean settlements AND OOB.

I've always thought that as well, and I'm sure many maps (not ISSOM ones) are drawn with that interpretation in mind. Looks like it's something that ought to be clarified.

[seabird]

Can anyone give an example of olive being used on an ISOM map, where you were allowed to run though it?

I have always taken it to show only settlement or industrial premises with very clearly defined boundaries, and as also being OOB.

I agree with others, that any other type of area which is out of bounds should be mapped with the relevant symbol; wood, open, hard surface etc, covered with either the black or purple vertical OOB lines.

[Jayne]

@ba-ba they probably were in the olive green. I got confused expecting to have a fence round some houses or something. Got into the olive green rough open, looked at my map for a bit, and then realised and went into the woods (slow). def should have gone through the houses.

[madmike]

@ba-ba they probably were in the olive green. I got confused expecting to have a fence round some houses or something. Got into the olive green rough open, looked at my map for a bit, and then realised and went into the woods (slow). def should have gone through the houses.

Have a look at Ba-ba's route gadget trace Jayne - they probably weren't

[Jayne]

oops