Demographics

[King Penguin]

W12....only twice as long as Spongey and Murray.... - a world champion in the making ?

[deebee]

One thing that seems to have been forgotten is that us baby boomers had babies as well, they're now adults with families of their own. Instead of us dragging them (or being dragged by them) on a Sunday morning, we now orienteer as adults without children. Our kids, meanwhile, seem to be part of the 'missing' generation, and their children are taking up different sports, hobbies, playstations, whatever, from the wide range of activities now available on a Sunday - thirty years ago there was very little else to do on Sunday.
Personally, I debated long and hard whether, as an M65, I was going to renew my membership this year. As well as the physical problems which creep up almost unnoticed, my peers are disappearing one by one. Once it was fun to compete against the same people every weekend, now you have to choose your events then choose your class, then hope 'the others' have made the same choice.

[Arnold]

I don't think that 21s don't like orienteering per se.
They just don't like orienteering week-in week-out in average forests with no social side.

There are certain events which do attract decent numbers of 21s - Venice for example, or the JK and Scottish (more so than the British), or street-so/summer races in London which are almost exclusively 21s.

All those have what Mrs H would call "extra value o" either provided by the organiser or by the surroundings (eg being in a city). Pubs at the finish, ceilidh, shopping, or at least a big marquee.

So I don't think orienteering will die. But the "average colour codeds or badge events" might, as to an extent they already are - it's just not economical to organise really complicated events for a couple of hundred people.

[AAH]

There is a question as to whether orienteering markets itself at the people who are actually likely to stick at it. Orienteering genuinely is a good sport for families (and is one of the best sports going for veteran age group competition - a point that is never used in marketing) but ultimately the people who get really into it tend to be people who like a challenge with a proper physical element.

Fell running seems to be doing well at the moment, with numbers up at some fell races. Fell running is obviously a physical sport, with a genuine risk of getting very cold in the middle of nowhere or hurting yourself. Adventure racing and other challenges are up in popularity. Orienteering is promoting itself with TD3 local events in parks and is declining in popularity.

It would be interesting if orienteering tried a test rebrand for a few years, dropping the family/easygoing thing and presenting itself as more challenging and physical. It might not attract as many people to local events, but it might attract more people who actually stick at it and get heavily involved. No point marketing at a demographic who won't actually like what the sport actually is.

[SeanC]

So I don't think orienteering will die. But the "average colour codeds or badge events" might, as to an extent they already are - it's just not economical to organise really complicated events for a couple of hundred people.

I agree these are the events most in danger. If local events are unfriendly then at least it's not far to go, and for the most part they are friendly since it's just one or two clubs.

But I'd also add the regional championships onto the endangered list given the demographics at the Midland Champs.

The answer for the endangered "bog standard colour coded/regional/championship" event is really quite simple, cut down on the numbers of TD4/5 courses, and instead offer courses of differing technical difficulty. For example regional events could have:

1) a 10K trail challenge course. TD1/2 standard course aimed at runners, taking in the best of the scenery, the worst of the mud, and some taped routes through the most exciting terrain... straight up and down the hills, through the marshs.
2) A 1 hour score course with mostly TD1-3 standard controls, and a few TD4's, aimed at adults who want some navigation and some running but don't want the super technical stuff. The orange, yellow and white courses could then be left to the juniors (and marketted as junior courses, increasing their appeal to younger juniors).
3) A 3 hour "get all the controls in the forest or as many as you can" score event. Not timed, just the number you find recorded. Aimed at those who want a challenge, or who are injured, or who want to walk, or who are practising. Groups and pairs encouraged. Participants encouraged to help each other find the controls and finish the challenge.

These courses are relatively easy to plan and wouldn't need a lot of extra controls. Mass start/mass finish makes sense for these, which makes them sociable. And they take advantage of our most underused selling point... access to some of the best terrain in Britain.

Some people will move over to classic TD4/5 orienteering, but if they don't it doesn't matter, we'd be breathing new life into our sport.

We'd need to market them properly, but aiming at the recreational runners market is relatively straightforward. Saxons got 100 runners to a trail challenge a few years ago by posting on RunnersWorld and giving fliers out at just one local race (The North Downs half marathon). If all regional events had such courses, orienteering would get onto the radar of recreational runners which is a much bigger market than orienteers.

[RJ]

..... Orienteering is promoting itself with TD3 local events in parks and is declining in popularity......

Have to disagree AHH with the link you make in this hypothesis.... our experience is exactly the opposite. Yes orienteering numbers.... membership generally.... is decreasing.... within the sport.

But park orienteering... really easy terrain/courses.... is proving a winner with us and has given us our strong growth in membership. Where folk can have a positive experience from some low key 'O' competition, and then have further opportunities to try it out they will quickly learn what is involved and then move on to other race formats/events that are offered. We have found that it is a very valuable route into the sport.

[Ali Wood]

I don't think that 21s don't like orienteering per se.
They just don't like orienteering week-in week-out in average forests with no social side.

There are certain events which do attract decent numbers of 21s - Venice for example, or the JK and Scottish (more so than the British), or street-so/summer races in London which are almost exclusively 21s.

All those have what Mrs H would call "extra value o" either provided by the organiser or by the surroundings (eg being in a city). Pubs at the finish, ceilidh, shopping, or at least a big marquee.

So I don't think orienteering will die. But the "average colour codeds or badge events" might, as to an extent they already are - it's just not economical to organise really complicated events for a couple of hundred people.

All comes down to reasons for orienteering. For me, wild terrain, smell of pine needles, exposure to changeable weather, physical (and mental) challenge. If regional (and ultimately bigger) events are going to die and be replaced by local park events, then "See Ya!".
Perhaps there is a point to be made, to try and improve the facilities at medium size events for people to get together socially more, but I don't think the absence of ceilidhs or shops puts M21's off... it's more like namby pamby softness.....

[HOCOLITE]

A few years ago I would have travelled the country every weekend for O. But no longer. Why? Have I become a softie? Maybe. But these days I don't want to spend the whole weekend travelling or stuck on the M6. Now once or twice a month to a local event is what I feel happy doing. I'm tempted by a couple of Urban events this year as I want to look round the towns / cities. That I think is the crux for me. Once I've been to an area unless it is something really special do I want to spend all day travelling to go again. I would for a multi day if on balance I like the areas and for the JK. But for a regional or even the British I seriously consider the travel time and the costs (accomodation if required) and decide I'll stay at home.

[aiming off]

This thread prompted me to look at an extreme comparison of how things have changed over the years. JK 1976 and BOC 2012 were held on the same bit of Dalegarth in the Lakes.

12 of the top 16 on M55 at BOC 2012 were also competing at JK 1976 as M19 or M21.

All 12 have faster times/km at BOC 2012, and on average were 30% faster than they were over 36 years earlier as an M19/M21. I find that amazing.

[AndyC]

I don't I find it helps explain why we have had threads complaining that older runners could take the prizes for younger age groups as well as their own age group.

[AAH]

If the sport wants to retain M/W21 and M/W35s it does need to provide some proper, accessible, enjoyable races for people of normal ability at those age classes. 15-20 years ago, the JK had about 50-60 people running elite and 200 running M21L (e.g. see JK 1997, Penhale Sands – a very memorable event). M21L was a great class – lots of people to run against. Elite was for those fast types who were very good at the sport.

But now very few people actually run M21L. There are often 1 or 2 entrants at regional championships. I think there are about the same number of people now as 15 years ago who are capable of Championship standard and a big collapse in people who take winner+ 25-50%. At championships, the only proper competition is M21E and so there is a lot of pressure to enter elite. But M21E is a very serious undertaking - equivalent to a 16-17 mile road race perhaps. You really have to be very into the sport and highly trained to want to do that and indeed capable of doing it in a reasonable time. So if someone gets keen in the sport what are they meant to enter when they first enter a major event?

At the moment, there are 65 entries for M21E at the JK, 20 for M21L, and 25 for M21S. And that’s the JK – the most popular event on the calendar. M/W18 and 20 also seem to be overheavy on elite.

People who completed M21L at Scottish Champs 2012: 2, Midlands: 1, Northern: 2, Southern: 8. These courses are pointless - how miserable to run a course with 1 other person?

Imagine being new-ish to the sport, having done some local events and now wanting to enter one of the above events? Why bother? The lack of proper competition is a very serious barrier to anyone wanting to enter the sport at 21 (or indeed 18-35). But there are still plenty of keen orienteers to run against – colour coded events work well for that reason.

Personally, I’d put M20, 21, 35 and 40 (at least) on the same course at championships, splitting it only if you get 100+ people, so you have a proper interesting competition, with a separate course for elite. At all levels, people like to be in a race against a reasonable number of other people at a similar level. Courses with a few people on them are damaging and should be avoided at all costs. This is a serious issue.

[SeanC]

The SEOA championships is organised like this.

1) One age group competition per age class
2) The usual regional colour coded courses (reusing courses from 1) ).

If you don't want to run your age class course (ieAll the B/C/V/Z runners) then run the colour coded course of your choice. M/W21A/B etc then get a decent competition.

This would help a bit, but wouldn't solve the fundamental problems, and W21E would still be uncontested.

[EddieH]

What a load of negativity

Yes it is important to analyse what is going on, but in many areas the sport quite clearly is NOT declining. So perhaps instead of moaning why not take all those areas that are increasing and look at why that might be.

Of course the younger adult profile is much lower than it was. The reasons are all in this thread. They apply to all sport.

Yes Adventure racing is thriving to what it was, (but the numbers are small, and those that go every other week or so are miniscule).

Why not be encouraged by quite how many of the 50's + are those that used to orienteer when they were young and then pulled out. I've noted a few names recently that I distinctly remember giving up as teenagers.

Yes we need to think about what we are providing, but this is a great sport with massive appeal to a realtaively small demographic - (you have to enjoy maps) and as KP said you have to be resilient.

Those that advocate throwing out events that don't appeal to young adults presumably couldn't care less that if they go too far they'll drive out the majority of older competitors, many of whom are the mainstays of keeping the calander ticking over.

[DeerTick]

I've posted on similar threads in the past. So, at the risk of boring you all: as a serious, serious road runner and sometimes cross-country runner, I discovered O in my mid twenties and can still remember the excitement it engendered. I thrived on fitness, not navigational ability (all right, didn't thrive, maybe did OK). Some of my, very fit, clubmates tried O, but didn't stay long. I have no idea what attracted me, but not them; and I have only vague ideas as to why I drifted away after a few years (see my earlier posts).

So, I have nothing to offer on how to attract M21s. Sorry.

Personally, I’d put M20, 21, 35 and 40 (at least) on the same course at championships, splitting it only if you get 100+ people, so you have a proper interesting competition, with a separate course for elite. At all levels, people like to be in a race against a reasonable number of other people at a similar level. Courses with a few people on them are damaging and should be avoided at all costs. This is a serious issue.

But I think this is on the right lines.

(As if anyone cares) I'm excited about O again. Eddie H, here I come!

AP

[Angry Haggis]

At last year's City Race we got 94 starts on Men's Elite (~M21E) and 130 starts on Men's Open (=M21L+M21S?)

http://cityrace.org/files/2012/results/ ... elite.html
http://cityrace.org/files/2012/results/ ... _open.html

i.e. slightly more on the shorter course. How can this split be explained?

The Women's Elite/Women's Open had a much more pronounced skew - 25/96 respectively.