Squeezed middle?

[Jayne]

So, what that seems to say is the M/W21s go to the bigger events but not the smaller events - hard to see the full effect without the Level Ds, but it would seem to make sense.

Scenario: M/W21s in general probably have busy social lives/start of career/small children - i.e. lots of things to fill their time, so perhaps choose their events more carefully. I know from our own midweek events - that giving up one evening a week to travel not so far is often preferable than spending a whole Sunday/weekend away.

I'm guessing one of the reasons for the small numbers at the Twin Peak is the effect of having other large events around - BOC and the JK weren't that long ago and if you're based in the Midlands or further South both included a fair bit of travel.

AWK makes a good point about events being comparative to races such as the Tough Mudder. The friends I have who do these will probably only do a few races a year and a group of them will go, so don't mind the cost so much. Adventure races again are expensive, but I think a lot of people would only do a few a year unless really keen.

[frostbite]

A few more for you:

LOK Level D Thursday evening, 48:
SLOW Level D Tuesday evening, 45:
DFOK Level D Wednesday evening, 41:
CHIG Level D Tuesday evening, 39

Impressive numbers of young(ish) people turning up for evening races around London. But a lot of those names look familiar, even to someone like me who rarely ventures south of Sheffield. Are these new young people who have been attracted to orienteering, or is it just that lots of orienteers around this age end up living/working in London?

[Scott]

There are a reasonable number of newcomers in there, but I think perhaps more important is the number of "established" M/W21s for whom these easily-accessible weekday evening events are now the main type of orienteering that they do, generally for the reasons suggested by Jayne above.

I can think of plenty of young people who would probably have given up the sport altogether if it wasn't for this type of event, and even some who did give it up for a while but have now returned thanks to being able to go orienteering in a way that fits around the rest of their lifestyle.

The fact that these events generally have a social atmosphere that (at least from the young-adult perspective) is infinitely superior to most Sunday-morning forest events is also pretty helpful in attracting this age-group.

[distracted]

A club naturally will run activities to suit its membership. Hence the 'success' in London.

So a club full of old men will (generally) put on events that the old men will want to run.

A few clubs are thinking beyond their primary demographic. But most don't...

One of the most damning measures of this must be the amount of money brought into the sport from non-orienteers (excluding external grants). Can't be more than a pittance.

But why? Maybe because 'orienteers' have this mindset that all "events" must suit 'orienteers'. And heaven help the organiser should those car park marshals not get their run! So we don't have any Tough Guys, Mighty Deerstalkers, or races of such profile in orienteering. Orienteers wouldn't want to organise them.

The fact that races of this nature (a) attract the very demographic this thread is focussed on, and (b) can charge the entry fee that they do, and still attract said demographic, hasn't passed this thread by.

However, the obvious extension to this line of thinking doesn't seem to have been made. One event like this, within a club's annual calendar, could make a greater impact on the sport - both in terms of participants and certainly in terms of bank balance - than the thousands of man hours spent on everything else.

Why hasn't it been done? Well you'd have to know what style of 'race' (note - singular) to host. And then there's probably no-one in the club with the appropriate skills to be able to market it properly...

Can it be done? Seems to work pretty well in Hamilton, Canada. Oh, and they seem to have a number of sponsors. And the ability to drag someone along who can then sell it pretty well Page 1 Page 2 in a magazine article...

[frog]

Some events are cheaper than o events though. I've just returned from a hill race with a £2 entry fee that included reg in school hall with toilets, and tea, sandwiches and cakes afterwards plus prizes.
I don't want to organise a mighty deerstalker because it isn't an orienteering race and organising events isn't a hobby of mine. I'll do my bit to keep orienteering going but have no desire to start organising other events. Why should orienteers run events for nonorienteers?
Fine if you have a club member who is enthusiastic about this sort of thing and willing to take on all the work butI'd rather organise a £2 hill race than a £50 mighty deerstalker if I'm going to do something nonorienteering.
Most clubs put on events for their members. That is the purpose of most clubs. Yes you also put on events to try and attract newcomers but clubs that try to hard to please people who aren't club members will find the club members drift away and do other things as the club no longer serves their interests.

[Becks]

While I generally agree that exciting big event races is cool and probably worthwhile for raising O's image, it is worth pointing out that most of the ones mentioned already are run by companies with paid staff, and not by volunteers.

[SeanC]

Are these new young people who have been attracted to orienteering, or is it just that lots of orienteers around this age end up living/working in London?

I'm sure it's both, but the fact that young orienteers moving to London want to stay orienteering has to be a good thing. It must help recruit/retain new M/W21's to see a decent number of younger orienteers, even if the majority are over 45. No-one likes to feel out of place.

Just thinking of the new people (complete newcomers) who've joined us (DFOK) in the past year or two... just the ones that have been more than once or twice:

W21
W21
M21
W45
W45
W45
M45
M50
W14
W10
W10
M50
M65

I guess that's a reasonable correlation to the demographic of outer London boroughs.

Like SLOW we're doing many more Park type races with an emphasis on sociability, though many of ours are on Saturday rather than midweek.

[SeanC]

Going back to the MDOC minibus (sorry... cracked record etc).

OK so there was an article in Focus/Compass Sport. I can see why my club wouldn't consider it (we rarely get enough people to the bigger events to more than half full the bus), but what about other big clubs? Is it something that people considered and rejected? Or is it that no-one has time to take on the project as we are all too busy organising events to organise going to events?

[Len]

As a 20 something who appears to fit the bill for this topic, I'll stop lurking and compose a reply.

Firstly, adventure/mud slog races etc, are a complete red herring. Popular they may be, but they won't attract people who are likely to be regular orienteers. Out of my running friends, who number a fair few, I don't know anyone who has done one. I would suggest the main aim appears to be to finish the event in one piece rather than anything else.

Secondly cost wise, I would agree that pricing needs to be looked at. I was told all about the Scottish 6 days and was keen to go, but financially it didn't add up when I could travel abroad for the same amount or less of the entry fee, accomodation and travel. Also taking a week off work, I'd rather go abroad! Coming from a running background, I don't quite get why I need to enter so early to get the discount, even if it is small, this applies to most events where the deadline is more than a week in advance.

In isolation, orienteering events compare favourably to running ones, but the bigger, or weekend events require multiple entry fees, which soon adds up to a fair amount, and doesn't compare well, esp if you don't live nearby. Therefore people are selective.

I think between the informal local events and the bigger events, there needs to be a clearer progression for people to move through. I was very much put off at my first few weekend events, getting horribly lost etc., simply because I had been told Black was the course for my age group. No one though to ask how much orienteering I had done, they just assumed that as I had bothered to turn up I knew what I was doing. This happened several times, luckily I persevered, even if I still get lost, just a bit less!

I think there are a lot of club runners out there who would be tempted by orienteering, (people always show an interest) but in my experience of three running clubs in three different cities, there is simply a lack of exposure to it, or realisation of events on their doorstep, I think the orienteering needs to go to them. I'm sure it could tap into Parkrun as well as that grows and grows.

Apologies if that rambles a bit and I could go on, of course I may not be representative of the age group concerned!

[roadrunner]

I think there are a lot of club runners out there who would be tempted by orienteering, (people always show an interest) but in my experience of three running clubs in three different cities, there is simply a lack of exposure to it, or realisation of events on their doorstep, I think the orienteering needs to go to them. I'm sure it could tap into Parkrun as well as that grows and grows.

I see that BADO have got their club nights listed in the local Parkrun news, under "upcoming local events". That sounds like a good way of getting information out to a lot of runners that could usefully be copied.

[Red Adder]

I'm rather surprised that Len was advised to do a black - at my club and I suspect most others you are advised to run down (Orange ?) which often is too short /easy (and can put people off) but less of a fag for the organisers waiting and then searching for one newbie on an inappropriately long / technical course.

The way I was introduced still seems pretty good - with a Uni we had pre-event intro (including that film that was doing the rounds in the mid 70s) explaining what O was, the map & symbols, the clubd socials etc. The next Sunday we went around a "yellow" in a small group led by some one of experience and then did something more taxing on our own (at the same event). Despite spending 2 hours on a "blue" - much of which hunting for tghe 2nd MM at the wrong end of a wall I was hooked.

[Knee Deep Mud!]

Another group I'm in (non-orienteering) runs a minibus to get people to events. We are continually having discussions over whether it is a viable proposition, but at the moment the answer keeps coming out as yes.

Most of the people who travel in it are students / other people without their own transport, who otherwise would not turn up. In recent years providing this transport has significantly dropped the average age of the people who turn up (in conjunction with a bit of appropriate publicity targeted at the local university).

Key issues are cost of initial purchase, depreciation / building up funds for future replacement, insurance, and parking. Running costs are significant for a vehicle that only gets used one or two days a week.

Insurance does fall in cost with increasing age but over 65s? are not allowed to drive these things.

Legally you have to be over 21 and held a driving licence for 2 years. Our insurance covers up to 70, and they will go higher for additional premiums. Over 70s also have to have medicals to get their normal licences renewed, so this is an additional factor.

You need to be careful with hiring the minibus out to other groups to raise additional funds as it could invalidate the insurance (read the small print!).

Financing a minibus could also be an issue as charging for use may affect who can drive. If you charge people to use it, then the driver has to have a full D1 category on their licence, unless you have received the appropriate permit for the minibus. If you have a permit, or don't charge then you can drive on an ordinary car licence. Full details at: http://www.direct.gov.uk/prod_consum_dg/groups/dg_digitalassets/@dg/@en/@motor/documents/digitalasset/dg_4011275.pdf

On a more orienteering based view, my club has considered hiring minibuses to get to bigger events, but the membership is so spread out that it has not been considered to be that feasible.