MTBO - discredit certainly not deserved

[the exile]

Scott wrote: Indeed, and it is still very unclear what is going to happen after 2013, when the UK Sport funding for BOF's international programme comes to an end. I don't think it would be wise for anyone to take WOC funding for granted beyond that point.

As disappointed as I am to hear of potential funding problems for ALL British o-athletes when competing for GB at World Championships, the info does also highlight the inequitable discrepancy in funding between our top foot-o and MTBO athletes.

While the foot-o WOC team has full funding, the GB MTBO team gets ................... their entries paid How fair is that? Why should only the one IOF discipline be funded in this way? Both teams are representing GB and BOF! But only the MTBO team have to pay all the other costs - travel, accommodation etc. Takes me back to the good old days of the 1970s - when it was always a case when receiving a selection letter - "Can I, as a poor student, actually scrape enough money together to get the WOC to represent my country?"

You would expect, with the amount of funding that has been invested by external funding providers in GB international team representation and preparation in the last 10-15 years (?), since the real funding started, that these days were long gone. They are I hear you emphatically stating. Yes, for foot-o, but certainly not for MTBO

And again, whilst we are here, all BOF's coaching and development efforts and funds go solely to foot-o? Again WHY? How can this be fair?

Nothing like a good rant before I get on my bike:)

[Gross]

Is BOF the body responsible for MTBO in the UK?

[the exile]

Yes, I know that the BMO is the official organisation for MTBO in the UK after assuming the mantle from Trailbreak in recent years.

The historic reason for this is as much by default as the BOF Council at the time didn't want to know anything about it in the early stages of MTBO in this country, and made the decision at one of its interminably dull full-day Saturday council meetings in Crewe, I was actually present, to wash its hands of MTBO and found a suitable person in Colin P and Trailbreak to 'pass the buck' on to. This was clearly the easy way out for BOF but lacking in foresight as MTBO has developed significantly since into fully-recognised international IOf discipline with World championships etc.

So we have the situation where BOF is only responsible for 3 out of the 4 IOF disciplines with the anomaly is that the UK is the only IOF member country where the national governing federation is not directly responsible for MTBO. Logical?

And so funding for 3 of 4 IOF disciplines goes through BOF, but the other fully-recognised IOF discipline (MTBO) gets virtually none as a direct result of the organisation anomaly instigated by BOF. Logical? Fair?

[Jon Brooke]

Yes, I know that the BMO is the official organisation for MTBO in the UK after assuming the mantle from Trailbreak in recent years.

You've written that last bit down wrong.

The TCA (Trail Cyclists Association) became BMBO (not BMO) a little while ago. They used to call their OS Map based events "Trailquest" events. Now they are called MTBO Score events. They also run MTBO events that are linear and run on O maps (or preferably MTBO maps with tracks marked for rideability and fewer extraneous features marked).

Trailbreak is a commercial outfit that puts on some Trailquest style events.

[the exile]

Yes, a typo or brain short circuit. Thank you for correcting this. I stand corrected.

[the exile]

Watch out for the novice Norwegian ski orienteers trying MTBO

I think you mean Norwegian ski orienteers who are fairly new to MTBO (made their debut internationaly last year) as the athletes you mean can hardly be described as novice ski orienteers

Indeed, they represent a not insignificant cross-over that is prevalent between ski-o and MTBO as the o-technique skills are similar in that map memory and route choice are very important. The fewer stops the better - which is also important in foot-o of course - only that stopping in an MTBO race takes more time as much more momentum is lost.

Heather Monro and Helen Winskill have achieved results around 4th - 7th internationally in MTBO

I believe you are right. It was though a few years ago now and as you also say MTBO is a very young sport and is developing. Indeed the standard of the international elite is rising very fast every year and it is difficult to compare past results and standards with current ones for this reason, not wishing to take anything away from two outstanding orienteers.

[the exile]

Harry wrote: Yep phrased wrong but you knew what I meant. I forgot how smartarsed everyone is on this forum.

I wasn't trying to correct your grammar, and yes I understood what you meant because I know which individuals you were referring to. However, others might not. And you have to agree there is a huge difference between 'novice Norwegian ski orienteers' and 'top world class ski orienteers', which these individuals are, if you are making a comparative point about the standard at elite level.

Marte Renaas says she will do some races this season too, she got a 9th place at EOC MTBO but despite similarities it shows the sport is not yet so competitive if you can come in the top 10 in European Champs in your first race.

Good to hear that she wants to compete in MTBO more.
But I disagree that this proves that MTBO is not so competitive. We are talking about a world champs ski-o medallist and a very good foot-orienteer. On the contrary, I think it shows what I stated before - that it serves to illustrate the big crossover that has historically been the case from ski-o to MTBO. There many examples - Victor Korchagin, Ruslan Gritsan to name just 2 ex-ski o world champions who are currently at the top end of international MTBO. This is due primarily for 2 reasons: a) the similarity in o-skills required and b) for this reason mtbo is perfect training when there is no snow.

This has been the historic development of the sport. However, we are now seeing excellent cyclists also at the top end of the results too.

Another Norwegian ski orienteer: 2nd middle distance JWOC MTBO 2009. Pretty cool to only take part for fun and win a JWOC medal in your 2nd ever race!

Yes, great to see more Norwegians in MTBO as it is almost 10 years since Tommy Olsen got 10th at WOC. She got a great result, and may have taken part for fun (don't we all?) but she is hardly a 'random punter' who has just walked off the street to win a medal in a 'mickey-mouse sport'. She is a world class ski-orienteer even if still only a junior, Norwegian junior cross-country skiing champion and just recently selected for the Norwegian cross-country squad.

[awk]

EBenham says "GB orienteers are not motivated to train as hard as they can. "

At the risk of being labelled a smartarse (but probably already am!), that isn't what Emily actually said in her post (unless I've missed it from somewhere else). There is a subtle but important difference between this and what she actually said:
"I think many GB athletes don't have quite the right attitude to make it to the top. Very few athletes really shine through and have the absolute dedication, and they get the results."
The first implies a criticism of all British orienteers. The second states what is probably reasonably accurate - many (but not all!) don't have the commitment, but then many athletes of any nationality don't have it either. It's true very few athletes shine through (and probably inevitable), and it's true that those who who do and have the dedication are those who get the results - this also applies to non-GB athletes.
I certainly never had the right attitude (or indeed the ability!). It takes a certain degree of obsessiveness to reach the very top, and as soon as one talks about balancing lifestyles etc, then I suspect it pretty much cuts that out. No criticism meant - I have huge respect for those who are able to commit themselves to such a project, but equally respect those who decide they have other priorities - it's a matter of individual choice (assuming you've got the potential in the first place!).

[mharky]

But I also wanted to say that I think Foot Orienteers take BOF funding at WOC for granted and as a given. I don't think it really motivates people to train as hard as they can.

[EBenham]

hmmm... I had written a really good response to this topic, but then didn't manage to submit before my exam. Now post-exam, I see the thread has moved on to what I was going to say!!

I did say 'I think that many GB orienteers' etc etc. which makes it an opinion and therefore not fact. It wasn't meant as a jibe at anyone, more a casual observation on my part. But. There has to be a reason why the GB team continue year on year to get ok placings at WOC. Surely, if athletes are improving physical fitness and training hard technically, then you would expect their results to improve each year... We have a fantastic variety of terrain in the UK.

I was also going to say earlier, that I think there is a lot of cross over from XC skiing to MTB'ing and running. XC skiers are renowned as being amongst the fittest athletes. I hope to move abroad for 6 months at the end of this year and do some XC skiing, as I think that I can gain a lot of fitness from this. The Norwegian Junior at JWOC last year went on to win gold at Ski-O JWOC a few months ago. And the navigation skills are fairly similar to MTBO. You could also argue that I finished 2nd in my third ever MTBO race (EJOC 07) ... would you call this a random punter playing in a new sport and getting lucky? Or someone who is fairly fit and has taken fitness from one sport and a good base of navigation skills into another, and is better on a bike than running?

Back to the funding... there is some confusion as to whether BOF want MTBO or whether we belong to BMBO. A few years ago BOF were keen, and then seemed to reject it again. Who knows ... I have no idea! But I feel that due to attitudes within Orienteering, people deem MTBO as less worthy, and therefore (within BOF and the O community) the sport doesn't get the publicity or support it needs to thrive. Compass Sport are always very good at giving the sport a mention!

A prime example is from the World Cup in Hungary, where a 7th place in the Long Distance (my best ever international elite result) hasn't even warranted a mention on the BOF site. Not a comment or any hint that there was a major MTBO competition... how is the sport supposed to grow, and how are we supposed to get more people interested with this kind of attitude. Another instance, is that any Foot O competition such at the Elite Champs, will have postings on the BOF site at the weekends ... but yet MTBO results at WOC in Israel were 2-3 days behind ...

Yes, I know it is a smaller sport, but it is growing. Of all the athletes in the top 15 at the World Cup, every single one of them is a contender for medals and top 6 ... After this the competition admittedly drops off quicker than foot O counterparts, but nevertheless, the top level competition is equally as high.

My final point I was going to make earlier... Helen and Heather, when MTBO'ing we also focussing on Foot O careers. Therefore, all testing they may have done would have been aimed towards foot O and running, given that this was their priority. And yet, because they are well known in foot O circles, the impression I got at the time was that the O community was proud of their achievements and deemed them very good results. And yet, a few years down the line ... people are turning around an calling it a novelty sport.

Yes, there are some people who appear to be along for the crack. But they do train well, it is just unfortunate that orienteering ability is occasionally lacking! (And this isn't meant as a jibe to anyone, my orienteering ability is occasionally lacking, and I am definitely NOT saying that people don't deserve a place in the team) But I think these athletes realise they will not be world champion and are content to get PB's each year and try to limit their errors. Given the current size of the sport in the UK, it is no surprise that the best british men finish in the top 40 ... Until the boundaries are pushed and the competition in the UK is raised to a new level (hopefully by the younger members coming through, its great to see some new names this year) then the results will start to improve as well.

Answer me this: If I was to finish in the top 6 or win a medal at WOC this year, would say it was pot luck, or I only achieved it due to lack of competition, or would give credit where credit is due and say 'she trained hard, was dedicated and motivated, is a good athlete, who can navigate well and deserves that result'?

I fear I have been rambling on-and-on again. I'll shut up!

[the exile]

Mharky quoted from Em's post:But I also wanted to say that I think Foot Orienteers take BOF funding at WOC for granted and as a given. I don't think it really motivates people to train as hard as they can.

I tend towards Awk's interpretation. As I read it, this does not specifically state that foot orienteers do not actually train as hard as they can, only that there is a risk/chance that taking the funding for granted may reduce motivation levels.

But this is a question of semantics. This is not why I started the thread in the first place. It seems to have drifted off-line like a novice orienteer attempting a black course.

It was originally started as a response to the quote by Dids which appeared under a different thread and concerned whether a GB MTBOer might be able to look forward to receiving honorary BOF life membership if the person were to win a WOC medal

With all respect to those that compete in MTB-O, TRAIL-O, SKI-O, CANOE-O, BIATHLON-O, ALC-O, your achievements are great but cannot be compared to those of our best orienteers (I don't agree with the term foot-o, so I'm not going to use it). These sports are novelty variations of the real thing.....bit like underwater rugby, crazy golf, bog-swimming, 100m sprint in high heels, and womens football

I wished to refute the spurious attempt by Dids to portray a serious IOF discipline, MTBO, as a non-worthy Mickey Mouse type of event in the category of the fun events on the last line of the quote, and which by implication belittles any medals that might be won in the future by a GB team member.

It is not about the actual perceived status or image of mtbo in the UK, but about the standard of international MTBO.

It is not about comparing the various orienteering disciplines and stating that a world class performance in one of them is better than the other. As others have written, to get to the top in a sport, especially endurance and technical ones like foot-o, ski-o and mtbo, requires talent, dedication and hard work. Top athletes in any such sport deserve respect. Why does anyone feel the need to belittle one or the other, or praise one at the expense of the other?

I certainly don't. And although ski-o for obvious reasons is not a major sport in the UK, this does not mean that I don't appreciate and respect what it means to be a top competitor in a so-called minority sport. It would appear though that many foot orienteers do have a problem in respecting non-foot orienteering.

There are 3 points I would like to make:

1. MTBO is a serious IOF recognised orienteering discipline and the MTBO athletes at top international level deserve no more, no less respect than top class foot orienteers (or ski orienteers). In my opinion, they also deserve equal funding, see 3.

2. There is a major anomaly in the organisation of MTBO in the UK in comparison with all other IOF member countries in that MTBO is not directly controlled by the national federation. The BMBO is only affiliated to BOF.

3. And as a consequence of 2., there is a huge discrepancy in the funding available for MTBO in the UK, both for international teams and for MTBO development and coaching.
This is both unfortunate and inequitable.

[madmike]

Harry,
if Em's opinion was "some" vice "many" would your opinion then be that her opinion was right?

[Kris]

To suggest that any of the guys competing at WOC or any international level are not training as hard as they can is wrong, it takes years of effort to get to that level and after putting in that effort your damn sure going to make sure you get the best result you can. I'm not even going to touch on MTBO as I don't know enough about it, but I would suggest that it's not the nicest thing to critisise another persons efforts in this way. I don't think you'd like it.

[the exile]

Kris wrote: I'm not even going to touch on MTBO as I don't know enough about it, but I would suggest that it's not the nicest thing to critisise another persons efforts in this way. I don't think you'd like it.

"I don't think you'd like it" - to be fair to Em, I think she get's this a lot of the time:
"You might be quite good, but it is only MTBO after all"...

Some foot orienteers do seem a might touchy at any perceived criticism, whereas mtbo athletes have to put up with it most of the time .. worth reflecting on perhaps?

[Adventure Racer]

Regarding the athletes crossing over from ski-o to MTBO, the one thing I don't think anybody has mentioned is the physiological similarity - XC skiing is far more similar physiologically to riding a bike than running is. I'd actually be surprised if a top level ski orienteer who was also on the national XC squad couldn't get a top result in their first attempt at MTBO, given the huge engine they undoubtedly have, along with experience at similar decision making (far more so than would be the case even for a world champion at Foot-O).