4 Levels

[pete.owens]

It's the AGM motions deadline today. Anybody have any news on whether the "four levels" motion has actually gone in, or whether some kind of compromise has been reached?

A motion has been submitted.
It looks like the proposed new level is aimed at events of national significance.

[andypat]

Is it too late for both sides to submit articles to Compass Sport? I fear few are keeping up with this thread. I can only skim this thread now.

As good as their word - todays Compassport has long articles by both "sides" of the debate. Having read both comments I'm now firmly back on the fence! I was sitting on the side of the 4 levels argument but can see the point of the 3 levelers that we clearly arent using the 3 levels properly. I'm not sure why this is.

For example the SOSOLs (South of Scotland O League, previously district events) and the SOLs (Scottish O League - previously regionals) should both now be clearly in Level 2 (of 3). But its pretty unclear in the marketing for either whether they are Level 2 or 3(Level 3 being essentially club only events). I personally am assuming the SOLS are level 2 and am unsure about the SOSOLs - think they are level 3 but could be wrong. Since by definition SOSOLs are league events covering the whole of Southern Scotland (Perthshire to Dumfries) they cant really be level 3 events can they?

[Big Jon]

A s far as Scottish events go the change to 3 levels of events has mean that the SOLs (Scottish Orienteering League for the Sassenachs among you) are level 2 (coordinated by the "region" of SOA and all others are (or should be) level 3 as they are all organised and coordinated by a club or group of clubs in an area of Scotland. Simple.

[EddieH]

No Jon that is not how it is going to be. It is entirely up to clubs, but the clear intention of the new system is that most old C4s will be level 2. The levy has been adjusted to make this feasible.

Basically as I see it by putting on an event at level 2 you are deciding to be goverened by SOA rules, but that is what you are doing anyway.

I suspect that there will be pressure on clubs from competitors that want rankingpoints to make events level 2. We'll see what happens but Moravian intend that our C4 type events will be level 2.

[HOCOLITE]

I've not got involved in the levels debate but I became a victim of the set up (I think) I run W50S. At the national last weekend it was fine- probably green standard, and At OD event in Jan it was mapped to Short Green but I found out last night that at my own club event this weekend it is mapped to Very Short Green. So when I enter under my age class I never know what I'm doing. I 'm not up to short blue but will do green if terrain not physical but will I now have to always enter a colour and not my age class to ensure I get the course I want to run.

[andypat]

The diagolgue above between Jon and Eddie seems to be a good example of whats causing my confusion. Eddie is right in principle but jon seems to be right in practice. My impression is that some of us are criticising the 3 levels without necessarily knowing what it means or how to use it. Myself included. Is there something in the practical difference between level 2 and 3 that is pushing clubs to put events on inappropriately as level 3 events when they should really be level 2? I'm vaguely aware there was an issue with levies thats been looked at?

[Clive Coles]

i think Andypat you have put your finger on the crux of the problem.

But it is not just Scotland where there looks to be a lack of consistency ~ in my region too one club has upgraded some of their old C4 style events to L2 whilst the rest seem to have stuck with the practice of staging just their showcase event of the season at level 2.

To be fair this could change now we know that only L1& L2 events will be ranked. I am sure pressure will grow from within the club membership for their results to be uploaded for ranking purposes.

But there is an equally strong pressure within clubs to keep entry fees down to old District event levels.

Although not a requirment under the new rules, most clubs still offer pre-entry facilities at Regional events. This in turn means you expect to be surcharged if you turn up and register on the day, (typically £2).

Fabian4 , not unreasonably, charge a handling fee for managing pre-entries; this cost is covered by increasing the entry fee from that charged for L3 events.

Regional events in our neck of the woods do not attract high numbers of participants. In fact in the last month it was a Local event in Epping last weekend had an higher attendance than either of the four Thetford Thrash and Punch Dumpling Regional events. All 5 events attracted fewer than 200 participants. I think we need to question if we really need to incur the costs of pre-entry for such regional events. If we didn't offer pre-entry facilities we could run our events with lower entry fees.

But we have grown to expect pre-entries at Regional events;I wonder how orienteers will react if we start to run regional events on a turn up and run on the day basis.

[DaveK]

But we have grown to expect pre-entries at Regional events;I wonder how orienteers will react if we start to run regional events on a turn up and run on the day basis.

Not well I suspect if they find the maps have run out! I'd always assumed pre-entry was to enable clubs to gain an idea of likely interest in an event and how many maps to produce for each course (and ensure minimum wastage/costs)?

[Clive Coles]

That's a fair point but it doesn't always work.

The SOS regional event (event lists currently close this weekend on Fabian) only shows 52 pre-entries at present. I bet when it comes to it there will be about 200 starters.

So in practice we have to print maps based on previous experience of recent events in the region.

But useful feedback ~ it confirms an expectation that Regional events still need to offer pre-entries.

[Spookster]

But we have grown to expect pre-entries at Regional events;I wonder how orienteers will react if we start to run regional events on a turn up and run on the day basis.

It sounds like you are talking about "old" Regional Events (or Badge Events, or age-class events, or whatever you want to call them). Yes, we had grown to expect pre-entries at those.

But new Level 2 events (new Regional) are not the same as the old Regional. There is no need for pre-entry at Level 2 events, and therefore no added cost or complexity.

[Blonde bombshell]

I note that Aire have a regional event on Sunday at Ilkley.
Advertised as 'regional - level 2 - with full range of courses connected to age classes'

On 11 April they also have a reional event at Bramham West Woods.
Advertised as 'regional - level 2 - with limited range of courses'

In old money Ilkley is a Regional / Badge event and Bramham is a District / colour coded event.
In new money they are both Regional, but Ilkley is level 2a and Bramham is level 2b. Aire still seem to be running the 4 level event structure, but calling is a 3 level structure.

As an orienteer all I want to know is what the events offer without having to look at the details to find out about number of courses etc. I suspect this is why so many of us want to retain the 4 level structure.

It is much easier & clearer.

[PKJ]

Way back when this thread was still young and fresh, I used AIRE's events this year as an example of how the 3-tier system can work perfectly well, if you want it to.
Which just goes to show how people can interpret the same thing in different ways, and that this event structure stuff really isn't important.

But, even after the latest CompassSport, I still don't know whether the 4-tier proposal is really -
a) let's have almost all of our 50-age class regional events back
(which I would vote against)
or
b) a number of these regional events (of whatever type) are of significantly higher quality and should be clearly identified
(which I might vote for)

[Blonde bombshell]

PJK - I think you have summed it up well.

Point b is the way to go. There can be big differences between old regional and district which are level 2 & 3. These differences are not obvious with the 3 tier structure.

But why do people seem so against age classes? I don't understand why events can't run 12 courses (black - white), allocate age classes to the colour courses and print results for each cc i) with all entries, & ii) divided into age classes.
This would mean that everyone is catered for.

[EddieH]

For Heavens sake why does it matter that level 2 events incorporate a huge range of event types. In the past I have been to badge (regional) events that could scarcely claim to have been on quality terrain, and that have not received any extra planning consideration whatsoever - I have also been to some that exceed many British Championships in quality and care.

Look at the new level 1s. The British Championships, a compassport cup round, the Harvester - WOW aren't they just providing exactly the same?

If you judge an event purely by it's status then you are likely to be very didappointed quite often.

And Clive I emphasise Spookster's point - these are NEW level 2 events - Noone says that they should all be the same criteria as the old regional events. (Again a BOF cock-up still calling them such.)

There seems to be a very gerneral approval of the new ranking system even if it is just a bit of fun. It would be good to have a little consistency across the country as to how many events people are able to attend. If Jon's idea that only our SOL's will be level 2 there will be a very small proportion of Scottish orienteers that feature in the list 12 months after a 6 day - is that what people want?

[awk]

Aire still seem to be running the 4 level event structure, but calling is a 3 level structure.

No, we are operating the new 3-level system. Both events are regional events because they are part of the regionally co-ordinated calendar. Both events satisfy the broad ranging criteria for a level 2 event. That is what the structure is about. So what if Ilkley has a few more courses than Bramham? Some of those 'high prestige' urban events the 4-tier crowd are so keen to put into higher levels, will only have 4-5 courses! Our Ilkley event is also the first race in the Yorkshire Superleague, which is designed to help create a differentiated brand in that calendar. Bramham is not Yorkshire Superleague.

The main point though is that we, the region, have created the differentiation. It is our responsibility, our ownership. So, for instance, there are age groups attached, but because 5-year age bands generate no competition, we are using 10 year bands.

This definition is nothing to do with BOF, and frankly, we don't want a national committee to be telling us what our events have to be like to achieve appropriate quality for a race, whilst log jamming the entire calendar. Their track record isn't that great, and they've been wise enough to recognise that regional needs differ across the country.