JWOC/EYOC selections

[buzz]

I read the document and it just made me want to cry.

Our young 16 and 17 year old athletes will have set targets made plans and been working throughout the winter with EYOC as the goal. You can't just move the goalposts halfway through the season - what sort of impression does that give to any aspiring athlete.

I've only ever heard good reports from athletes and coaches about their experiences at EYOC. Does anyone have any evidence that supports the reasons given?

Staff and athletes do not have sufficient time to become acquainted prior to the EYOC and this places undue pressure on both athletes and staff. It is also considered that putting athletes at this early stage in GBR kit before they have been a part of the talent programme sets expectations and aspirations that are inappropriate and misleading to athletes and their families.

In my view a proper talent programme that understands long term athlete development in orienteering would include international representation at critical stages and as much foreign competition and training as possible.

I've written to Jackie asking her to reconsider the decision and postpone any changes until the autumn which would give her more time to consult with athletes and coaches and explain her vision for the programme. Then at least it would be an appropriate time to introduce any revisions to the programme. If others feel the same I would urge you to contact Jackie.

Mharky, Ed - is there anything you guys can do to represent the athletes and coaches views on this one?

[aiming off]

Oh Dear

Very strongly echo Buzz's comments.

I coach two promising and enthusiastic athletes in this age group: and their stated seasons goal was EYOC selection, which they have been seeking to work towards, despite lack of information on selection policy, which is woefully late being issued.

I despair

[graeme]

what are you talking about in your second sentence

I'm not going to list the names of teenage orienteers who burnt out, overtrained, became anorexic etc. etc. But you know as well as I do that it's not short, and nor is it something BO would dare mention in public. It's not short in cross country either, and for all Jackie's inability to "become acquainted" with the needs of orienteers, she has a lot of experience on that particular issue.

I do agree with you about moving goalposts.

[Mrs H]

I know you are right about those issues Graeme - but surely they are separate issues which should be dealt with at source. At the point Jacky becomes "acquainted" with the athletes it is too late surely? Why should she have to unpick the damage already done?

What is required is a comprehensive and consistent program to support and protect juniors from early over development.

BOF has systematically scrapped every single initiative which made orienteering fun for young people to be involved with, which allowed people to progress at their own pace by keeping them in the loop. By leaving selections until later - when young people go off to uni or work and loose a lot of practical parental support - the sport must be cutting its potential elite by a significant factor.

There must be a middle ground - and this is not it. This is a bit like saying we are not going to play football any more because the players keep fighting. Why not do something to stop the players fighting and carry on playing? If you remove the aspiration you loose the motivation. The tricky part is containing the factors which can have a detrimental effect, ie unreasonable expectations, pushy parents, over training etc.

[Dave]

I don't think this is such a big issue.
Yes, it is bad that they've changed things with no warning but if anything this is a good lesson for all our budding juniors that you can't rely on your governing body.

I think at 15-16 it's more important to be building your experience and honing your skills in a variety of terrain than it is to be trying to race in over-hyped competitions.
If these juniors can spend their summer abroad learning to orienteer well there, that's going to be much more beneficial to them performing down the line. Stick with JROS, who offer exactly what's needed and worry about BOF when you're ready to go to JWOC. If they want a tough competition to aim for post JK, there's still the JHIs.

[buzz]

I don't think this is such a big issue.
Yes, it is bad that they've changed things with no warning but if anything this is a good lesson for all our budding juniors that you can't rely on your governing body.

I think at 15-16 it's more important to be building your experience and honing your skills in a variety of terrain than it is to be trying to race in over-hyped competitions.
If these juniors can spend their summer abroad learning to orienteer well there, that's going to be much more beneficial to them performing down the line. Stick with JROS, who offer exactly what's needed and worry about BOF when you're ready to go to JWOC. If they want a tough competition to aim for post JK, there's still the JHIs.

Our top juniors will have been to the JHIs before and are looking to step up - its about motivation as well as experience and practice.

Why should we have to rely on JROS when BO is spending hundreds of thousands of pounds of tax payers money on a programme which is supposed to help develop our sport. At best its becoming increasingly irrelevant and at worst its damaging the sport and individuals within it.

Lets take the hypothetical example of a young W16 who was invited to join the talent squad but was told they had to pay £450 up front for four domestic training camps one of which was at the Scottish 6 days and another they couldn't go to because of prior commitments. This seems a lot of money for 2 weekend camps but they want to get selected for EYOC so they persuade their parents to cough up. They go along to the first camp which is all about periodised training - make a training plan which targets EYOC and work hard all winter following the plan only to be told that they no longer have a chance of going to EYOC. In my opinion they should get there money back and an apology from BO.

Or another example of a talented young fell runner / orienteer who was inspired to focus on orienteering by the JROS Hawkshead camp and stories of EYOC from their peers. Decided they wanted to go to EYOC got themselves a new coach and worked very hard over the winter making excellent progress only be told that they had been wasting their time.

If Jackie has a vision for talent development in orienteering and clear idea of what a long term athlete development programme should look like then I think she should communicate it to athletes, coaches and the orienteering community as a whole. If there are any changes to the international programme to be made then these should be made in the autumn not half way through the training programme.

[buzz]

what are you talking about in your second sentence

I'm not going to list the names of teenage orienteers who burnt out, overtrained, became anorexic etc. etc. But you know as well as I do that it's not short, and nor is it something BO would dare mention in public. It's not short in cross country either, and for all Jackie's inability to "become acquainted" with the needs of orienteers, she has a lot of experience on that particular issue.

I do agree with you about moving goalposts.

I agree that illness, injury and burn out can be issues in the wrong environment although I don't see why including EYOC in the programme should in itself be a problem. In my opinion the lack of a long term pathway, focus on physical training/testing/diet etc, the shortage of personal coaches and lack of coordination with JROS are more of a recipe for burn out.

One example that I have raised with Jackie on numerous occasions over the past 3 years is holding training camps the week before domestic multi-day events like the Scottish 6 days which has in past led to serious long term illness for at least one athlete. The plan for last years camp plus the following Lakes 5 days included up to 16 hours training/racing in 10 days. Jackie refused to acknowledge that this was a problem although she was concerned that many of the athletes were going on to international multi-days and JROS camps afterwards which she saw as a problem.

One thing's for sure - without short term goals youngsters are much more likely to leave the sport - so burn out isn't going to be a problem.

[PhilJ]

Very much agree with Mrs. H comments, my youngest is in his first year at Uni, and very much enjoyed his years as a 16 and 18, always trained hard but never quite made it through to the various programmes, but always had goals as a 16/18 year old.

He has not O'd since joining Uni, there is no Uni club, there is a local club (DEVON) but he has fallen in with the wrong crowd cycling. His 2 passions were O and cycling and at the Uni they have a great cycling club, he completes all around the country in many different disciplines, has great friends who compete at a high level, many sponsored. He has now set himself the goal to get the club more sponsorship, get his Cat 2 license, get himself sponsored and hold a post in the Uni cycling club. I am sure he will still O but as soon as youngsters get to Uni and lose the parental support, they need other support, which they can only get from an established Uni O club or a very helpful club (lifts etc).

It is good to see that some of the lads he competed against are in good Uni clubs (SHUOC and EUOC) and are continuing their O. But do you decide your degree and future career not based on what course is on offer but if there is an O club?

[graeme]

What is required is a comprehensive and consistent program

And the problem is we have two programs competing to do that, neither of which seems willing to talk to the other.

But do you decide your degree and future career not based on what course is on offer but if there is an O club?

Yes, absolutely you do if you're in the Junior squad clique. Which just makes it more of a clique. ShUOC and EUOC are wonderful for their members, but for other universities they're just a pair of giant vampire squid sucking up all the talent.

[Mrs H]

And the problem is we have two programs competing to do that, neither of which seems willing to talk to the other.

....and whose fault is that?
If it was BOF's declared intention to out-source the junior development program to the regional squads - many of whom do an excellent job - then was there ever a stated mandate as to what was and was not being delegated?

(so few people are any good at delegation anyway and coupled with BOF's less than stellar record in communications it's hardly surprising that no-one knows what is going on until it's too late )

[Dave]

[a lot]

I agree with you it's terrible the way the juniors have been treated/mislead and communication is as bad as ever, as is timing.
BUT, that doesn't change my view that the 15-16s don't need to be trying to peak for international competition.
If they are our best juniors, as you say, they will be in the JWOC team and will get the big race(s). If they are the tier below - as I'd expect - but they still want big races, go to Oringen, it'll cost you no more than EYOC would anyway, there'll be just as good a field and less pressure.
I think there are plenty of ways to provide juniors with the experiences they want and need without throwing national kit at them before they're ready.

My understanding is that the role of the talent/development (whatever you want to call it) programme is to get athletes into a position where as 21s they are ready and willing to commit to hard graft to try and win WOC. Is taking/not taking M/W16s to EYOC really going to affect this?

[BenM]

An interesting side note of not taking a team to EYOC is the impact it has on getting help. North Somerset/Bristol City Council were immensely helpful to me with financial grants and gym access through their Springboard scheme.

What did I have to qualify for the scheme? I was at the top of my age group and I had been selected as reserve for EYOC. Without that I'd never have got their help. The impact of their help was, for me, massive. At the time I wasn't in the squad system and it allowed me to get experience abroad, get a garmin etc etc.

Since then they've made it tighter and you must have competed internationally. Internationals open doors. BOF just closed that door for the 16's.

[buzz]

[a lot]

I agree with you it's terrible the way the juniors have been treated/mislead and communication is as bad as ever, as is timing.
BUT, that doesn't change my view that the 15-16s don't need to be trying to peak for international competition.
If they are our best juniors, as you say, they will be in the JWOC team and will get the big race(s). If they are the tier below - as I'd expect - but they still want big races, go to Oringen, it'll cost you no more than EYOC would anyway, there'll be just as good a field and less pressure.
I think there are plenty of ways to provide juniors with the experiences they want and need without throwing national kit at them before they're ready.

My understanding is that the role of the talent/development (whatever you want to call it) programme is to get athletes into a position where as 21s they are ready and willing to commit to hard graft to try and win WOC. Is taking/not taking M/W16s to EYOC really going to affect this?

I could say a lot more! I'm actually restraining myself

I agree with much of what you say and indeed I'm sure there are plenty of models that would work, but none of them should involve moving the goal posts half way through the season and I hope that Jackie is big enough to recognise this as a mistake that can be easily rectified.

[Homer]

I hope that Jackie is big enough to recognise this as a mistake that can be easily rectified.

Not looking likely given the new announcement which has just appeared on the BO website:

http://www.britishorienteering.org.uk/i ... 9yZy51ay8=

[housewife]

If a summer camp in international terrain is planned with training and low key competition this could be a really good thing for the 16s. I certainly benefitted from the international tours when I was younger as my parents didn't go to multi day events abroad, and I was not in the JROS in the years when they were going abroad - it was my only pre-jwoc international experience. British orienteering will have to publish the details of and selection policy for such a camp shortly though, to allow talented 16s to decide what to run at the JK.