We don't belong here.

[graeme]

BEOC came about because BOC was rubbish - stupid times of year, weak areas.
BOF got their hands back on BEOC and BEOC became rubbish -

Yes.
But who, in this context is BOF? BEOC can still be separate and not-rubbish if the elites want.

"This year's clash with Tio was raised but no-one except me was at all bothered that several elites would be missing.".

Which of course isn't true. kitch is bothered, gross is bothered, even the guys running Tio are a bit bothered (though not enough to come). Some of us were even bothered enough to put a plan together: to have BEOC at Glen Feardar, a top quality area, with the WOC selection race, not clashing with anything else so all the best athletes would be there, and combined with a level-A punters event for atmosphere. And it got knocked back by "BOF", which I assume means elite competitions group, chaired by, um, JEP.

[awk]

BEOC came about because BOC was rubbish - stupid times of year, weak areas. BOF got their hands back on BEOC and BEOC became rubbish -

Sadly, all too true of so much, especially when BOF central take over from specialists, independent or otherwise.

[JEP]

The final decision was made by Events Committee despite my protestations. As Chair of ECG I also felt efforts should be made to move BEOC eleswhere. The majority of ECG did not agree and of course the Chair has to go with the majority. A Chair can lead as far as possible but not impose his own views if the majority are against.

New Events Committee has GG as a member - wonder if that will make a difference.

[mappingmum]

Well said JEP.

[Big Jon]

Maroc are willing to incorporate BEOC in the Scottish Champs at Glen Feardar on 2nd June if there is support for this move.

[Ed]

For me the most depressing part of this whole furore is that the stated aim of "removing the onus from hard pressed officials to make decisions in this area on the day" (LW in CompassSport) is in no way met by making British citizenship a requirement for eligibility requirement: this may perhaps be "easily demonstrated by a passport or citizenship document" (ibid), but not having either of these does not mean that you are not a British Citizen.

I assume no-one at BO read the uk.gov website helpfully linked to previously in this thread and the pages of information which say how you can tell if you are a British Citizen: just how much geneaology are the hard pressed officials on the day expected to do?

If they wanted the requirement to be "British passport holder" which iirc is the requirement for international representation then this would be fairly easy to check (but remember to take it with you - maybe you should have to show it at the start along with your whistle and SI card!) then they should have said so...

[obody]

I have no particularly strong feelings on where eligibility lines should be drawn, as the chances of any rulings on national champions ever applying to someone of my speed are fairly minimal.

I do find it strange that there seems to be an argument that having any eligibility lines at all is racist and/or the preserve of the BNP. We have championships with eligibility defined on the basis of gender (M21 v. W21), age (age class winners), ability (paralympics - ok, so they haven't included O yet) and location (eg Midlands champs winners were from Midlands/EAOA clubs) yet I haven't heard of these being branded sexist/ageist/disability-ist/racist.

So is there anything wrong with a British champs with some form of eligibility criteria, assuming you draw the eligibility lines in approximately the right place?

[madmike]

No

[AndyC]

I'm British (pedantically I'm English and exactly Mercian -see previous thread about Midlands Champs) but I don't have a valid passport; not having had need as the furthest abroad I've been, this Millenium, is Belfast (unfortunately not for the JK).
To prove my eligibility for work I've been having to produce my birth certificate. But I gather that isn't enough for BOF, if (and it is a big if as I'm not good enough) I'll apparently have to demonstrate that my parents were British -they were and all the family we've traced for 3 or 4 generations (sometime about then we think some Dutch and some Scots contaminated our English blood ).
Without a political bandwagon (I'll leave that to MHarky) and considering that the police are trying subtly to make us carry our driving licence whenever we drive, this gets closer and closer to us all being forced to carry Identity Cards (pockets in O tops specially designed to hold?)

[AndyC]

And I'm in favour of the test of "If I think I'm British and can justify that belief -I'm British or English or Scottish or a Midlander or......)

[Gross]

carry Identity Cards

And nothing wrong with that.... I guess I was one of the few who received a UK ID card before they were scrapped. I quite happily carry that with me along with my Lithuanian ID card.... no problems at all

[frog]

Why can't you just be a member of a British O club? Surely that will discourage the random holidaying Swedes, and if a random holidaying Swede can be bothered to join Tay for a few weeks just to win a trophy that he has to hand back the following year I think we'd be delighted to have him or her. If he can escape back to Sweden without being dragged into a relay team or asked to organise an event he'll have done well!
I'm not very patriotic though and am happy with brief residency rules ie you can win trophies in the country where you are living at the time, so I'd have given Graeme his US trophy as well, if he had joined a US O club.

[Ravinous]

Some comments...(with apols. for some deviations)

JEP notes, "A bit odd having someone who competes at WOC for another country as British Champion". The irony of the M35 British Night Champion 2012 is that it was won by Neil Kerrison. He ran WOC for NZL 2005 and 2008. Spent the majority of his life in NZL. Happens to have a GBR passport due to Mother (?) having one. Been living in SN not even a year (?) yet.
I know Matthias has run for Austria in the more distant past but he is a net contributor to O in the UK in his 18 years of kicking about the country.
I would like to see both Neil and Matthias run against each other (like they could have done in 2010 and before) and both have the chance to win a Gold medal.

BOF have succeeded in turning BOC into a British Passports Champs. I still like the idea that you are finding the best Orienteer in British terrain for that discipline every year. You can hand separate medals to those who are not 'visitors' to the country but ALL should be welcome at the prize-giving and prizes for the top three whoever they are.

Swedish Champs (SM) is ONLY for 18s, 20s and 21s. There are NO Swedish Champs for Vets and there is a Junior Championships for 15 and 16s which is a bit like JIRCs in that you go with your region. It is inclusive as anyone in the Region can go but it isnt something you can enter if you are not established in a club in a region. ie no holidaying Brits I think would get entered.
As for 10s, 12s, 14s having National Championships, Swedes are very anti this. Some early poster on this thread was commenting on his M10. Swedes would think you a very poor parent subjecting your child to such serious competition at a young age. Swedes dont give ANY grades/formal marks until they are 15 years old in schools. (This is due to be changed but don't expect any massive change.)
Vets have a Riksmasterskap at present which nobody goes to. It doesnt have SM status and there is a feeling that Vets should get their own SM - it certainly wont be combined with the main SM if it does come to pass.

I have said before, for 2012 and 2013, 21E BOC should be with WOC selection races as any clash with something like TioMila (3 years in a row) will mean the best arent there. But how doe we get it changed?
Unfortunately, we only have 7? people in the new Events and Comps Comm. currently doing the work (if the 4 appointed have started doing anything yet!?) of the 40 people that were doing stuff in various groups - JCG, ECG, SCG, etc etc. This is why FCC rounds dont get seeding lists, things dont get done, decided, as they were before. Things are in imho in a bit of a mess, with virtually no direction at present. This new Comps Group should have been in place by Jan and other 'groups' should have been started by now as the season starts, but we have fallen behind. Having just looked at some old blurb, it said the first meeting of this group was to happen in Feb.
I also fail to see the rationale behind standing down all the groups when there was nothing in place to replace them? How does the sport get run in the interim. Surely better to stand down each group as and when they are superceeded. We had lots of groups in the past for a reason. How can 'the show go on' with nobody at the helm. Plus I hear the new Chair, Mike F, has a new(ish?) full time job which will impede (no doubt has) any swift implementation of new groups.

It is good GG is on the new Events Committee although note it only meets twice a year according to the 'Terms of reference' despite having a HUGE remit. David May will hopefully also be good for putting across the 'elite' side of things and IOF SEA duties make him a good man to be there too. However, Elite is by definition, a minority, and as the new Committees terms of Reference says, they'll have to "Be objective and place personal views aside." Only time will tell if they can and will instigate positive improvments for the good of the active membership.

BOF seem intent on taking away virtually all decision making power from Associations. (eg All the disbanded groups had regional reps on them. Any replacements I imagine wont be constructed in the same way. New Events Committee only has 4 Association Reps on it and the Associations dont decide who they are. And certainly one of those recently announced isnt on his regional committee.)
I wonder when the Associations will wake up to this fact and also, if they will do anything about it?
When was the last time the Regional Chairs got together for a meeting?

[andypat]

if a random holidaying Swede can be bothered to join Tay for a few weeks just to win a trophy that he has to hand back the following year I think we'd be delighted to have him or her.

Getting a bit greedy after your INterclub relay win now arent you? .....

You can hand separate medals to those who are not 'visitors' to the country but ALL should be welcome at the prize-giving and prizes for the top three whoever they are.

Yes! For me thats the worst bit about the BOF edict.

[EddieH]

The strong feelings here bring me back to a bugbear of mine. Depending on the organisers, but typically the Scottish Champs gives everyone over 35 very short shrift. There are trophies for the first Scot in most classes (provided they are returned), but beyond that normally nothing is given. I know several English visitors who have been very unhappy about winning a class and not being acknowledged at all, or even worse being called out at prizegiving and going up to stand like a statue receiving nothing.

Why is this any different from the feelings that people are getting about BOF's policy?