Are our Elite spoiled brats or prima donnas?

[Kitch]

back to the question

given the consesus reached that it is competition guidelines that are at fault for requireing an elite course at a race that holds no value for those asoiring to international team membership (the "Elite)

then the answer if; No

They are not spoiled since the competition structure does not best support the cometitive aims and needs of the Elite. (and certainly not at the expense of other groups).

They are not Prime Donne since they do not shout and demand that competitions bend and neet their every whim. They get on with what they need to do within the constraints of the existing competition structure.

Where initiatives have come forward to supprt elite competition these have been primarily driven by the elite themselves.
UK Cup, Elite Champs were initiated by the Elite and designed to work with the broader sport as much as possible.

[DJM]

Absolutely right for the elite Elite, but what about the rest? There were 39 starters on M21E at the Southerns yesterday and surely they don't all come into the WOC-aspirant category!

They are a part of the necessary pyramid from which the "top" Elite are drawn but, at the same time, they are not subject to the "competitive aims and needs" of the top boys and will be free to enter whichever races they fancy. So maybe Colin's plea is more about why the "non squad" Elite aren't going to the Northerns and less about any absence of potential WOC members, the reasons for which have been explained at length in this thread ...

As one who shares some responsibility for the "competition guidelines that are at fault for requireing an elite course at a race that holds no value for those asoiring to international team membership (the "Elite)", I'd like to defend the decision to retain 21E courses at Area Championships.

Without them, there would be very few (one JK day, the British) British Orienteering races where 21E courses were available. This might not matter to aspiring WOC members who may get their 90 minute races elsewhere, but it does seem to matter to the rest of the "pyramid" who will find very few opportunities to run proper Long Distance races in a season. Building in 21E classes into the Area Championships guarantees a minimum of three more elite courses in the year.

Surely this is a good thing?

[AndyC]

On the other hand those developing elite will want to gain ranking points and there is much more chance of them if M21E & M21L are merged even if it is won in less than 90 minutes.

[Freefall]

The presses are about to roll on litho printed maps so if there is a last minute surge of not so elite elites wishing to enter do it now (plan is for only 7 more maps to be printed). This is because since this forum started we have tripled the number of entries on M21E!
Litho printing is obviously more complex to set up. What would happen in the (theoretcial) situation where we had done all the litho stuff and because of a late surge (tsumami?) of entries we decided to laser print courses just so runners could compete. Would this be better than saying the course was full up and oversubscribed so you cannot run it at all?

[Scott]

Absolutely right for the elite Elite, but what about the rest? There were 39 starters on M21E at the Southerns yesterday and surely they don't all come into the WOC-aspirant category!
[...]
So maybe Colin's plea is more about why the "non squad" Elite aren't going to the Northerns and less about any absence of potential WOC members, the reasons for which have been explained at length in this thread

But many of the same reasons apply, except that the "non-squad elite" are even more likely to have non-orienteering demands on their limited free time and disposable income.

We've just had the Southerns, next weekend is BUCS, then it's only a couple of weeks until the Sprint/Middle Champs, another fortnight and it's the JK, and then it's only three weeks until the British. Many of the "non-squad elites" are likely to be attending most or all of those - travelling significant distances to most of them and perhaps requiring overnight stays at a couple (plus rather expensive flights for the JK).

Another weekend in the middle of that lot involving several hours of travelling and an overnight stay is one event too many for young people with finite time and money to spend. The Southerns had the significant advantage of being 1hr travel from central London without a car (45min on the train to Henley, 15min on a bike to assembly).

And as has been said before, the Northern Champs are outside of term for many universities, so you wouldn't get any minibuses full of students even if it weren't the week after BUCS.

[Scott]

Oh, and I can't speak for anyone else, but as a punter-elite another factor in choosing which events I'm going to this year is whether they are in the UK Cup. I imagine that JK 2012 may be one of those popular JKs where they start kicking people off M21E, and I want to make sure I get enough UK Cup points this year to make the cut...

[bendover]

even the 'non elite elite' get a massive kick out of racing against the very best. if you get the biggest names to your race, the rest will follow.

its all been said already, but:

- there's only so many weekends in a year.
- believe it or not, lots of young orienteers don't want to orienteer every weekend, and actually have lives outside of orienteering.
- its much more rewarding to race against a big field against the cream of british elite orienteering, even if you are nowhere near the top ten. hence even the 'punter elite' will prioritise the UK Cup and Championship Events over everything else.
- travelling is super bloody expensive. going to an orienteering event is expensive (but good value for money). i can only really afford 1-2 events per month.
- if you don't own a car getting to remote events is hard. fact. not everyone lives close to other orienteers.

[Taybank]

This discussion reminds me of similar aguments which raged a few years ago in athletics.
Perhaps, not surprisingly, when the time came that athletes could get appearance money and win cash prizes coaching programmes were adjusted to allow them to compete.
It all comes down to a competitor's responsibilities in return for gainging public or orienteering resourced funding.
Maybe orienteering should give squad runners free entry to regional championships and other some other national level events.
Maybe the squad and squad support facilities should only be open to those who are in the top ten in the UK elite rankings to encourage their participation with a minimum number of British events included in their total.
Of course, all WOC team members would get their share of what funding is available to go to the championships.
This would leave everyone the right to decide how if they wanted to do their own thing while still ensuring they can earn a place to compete at the WOC.

[graeme]

but what about the rest? ...three more elite courses in the year...
Surely this is a good thing?

I suspect I've run more domestic "elite" races with no hope of troubling the podium than anyone else. Maybe I represent the punter elite? If you're saying the Area Champs are for people like me, then hurrah!

My reasons for running elite are
1/ I like running for a long time, seeing all the forest, and adding pace judgement to the other challenges of this wonderful sport.
2/ I like running "against" the best.
3/ I might need to qualify for BEOC or something I really want to do.

I don't need special privileges compared with other classes, nor does/did my level of talent/commitment deserve them. I'm not preparing for anything: area championship is the limit of my ambition. Very few punter-elites move up the pyramid, we know our place: making the others look good.

So, does the current structure suit a punter-elite? Not really. Elite races at the JK, British, five Area Champs and a selection race sounds about the right number. Holding them once a fortnight in the spring, then nothing through the rest of the year, makes no sense though - this is a hangover from the idea of an elite racing season comprising 90 minute races which died 20 years ago : the real elites don't want it now, nor did the punter elites ever.

So, yes to 90-min winning time courses, spread them through the year, get them in the UK Cup, and use full length courses to qualify for the full length BEOC, not sprints!

[distracted]

Another here to disagree with DJM. Again as a non-elite 'elite', it really doesn't matter to me what courses are on offer. Hambleden is close to home, I had good memories of the area from 2005 and I was already in Oxford on the Saturday having been involved with the Chasing Sprint, so I went to the event.

I chose to run elite as the course was on offer and it was a UK Cup race, and to challenge myself. Had there only been an M21L course I would still have been there and enjoying my run. Had the Southern Champs been somewhere down deep in the South-West I probably wouldn't have gone, just because it's too far away.

From the evidence this year, it appears that an elite course is welcome if you have a good weekend of racing planned with UK Cup status at both events - then there'll be a fairly decent turnout. Perhaps it's not worth planning elite courses otherwise, hence reducing the work load on the volunteers, as the numbers aren't worth it?

[Scott]

Had the Southern Champs been somewhere down deep in the South-West I probably wouldn't have gone, just because it's too far away.

Not even for Penhale in 2013?

[King Penguin]

Had the Southern Champs been somewhere down deep in the South-West I probably wouldn't have gone, just because it's too far away.

Not even for Penhale in 2013?

That's tempting even me....

[Scott]

14th April 2013 - put the date in your diary . I believe there is the potential of a sprint on a certain never-used-before, top-notch urban area the day before (although things are naturally very uncertain at this stage).

[andypat]

With or without pavements?

[EddieH]

I agree 100% with Graeme's sentiments*. I'm getting a bit long in the tooth for too many true elite races now, but I really appreciated the full length courses when I was younger.
Surely the course to scrap is M21L which should be combined with M35L and whoever else is on that.

* There are only 4 regional champs with elite races (the Welsh is level B)

Before the regional champs were scrapped for national events, there were always 3 in the spring and 1 in the autumn, and they had real status (particularly the spring ones). There seems to be an attempt to revive that, but none of our younger members remember what it was and they can only react to what they are offered with the result well discussed here.

Ray Demesne is part of the UK Masters cup and that I suspect has increased the entry considerably, but not for 21s. As I've said before if in future a remote regional champs is not selected for whatever league, level A status is unlikely to be incentive enough to get the punters that the effort and offset litho ... deserve.