Elite and Age Class Sprints

[distracted]

I find myself agreeing with Mharky again - simple is best, making sure that you deliver the quality that should be expected of the prestigious events. The decision to combine also helps free up an already congested calendar.

Keep the Qualifier/Final system, perhaps in age bands (junior, open, vet, supervet etc?) for practicality? - pits the relevant people against each other, and reduces the length of the qualifying start block. As Mharky says - choose to run up (in this case a 'band') and you do so knowing you won't count in your age class - it's one or the other, your choice. If you think you're good enough as a 45 to stand a chance of beating all the 21s, good on you!

And the "only 55 amongst 45/50 in the vets A final" type argument - well if you're not good enough to qualify for that final, do you deserve to be champion?

[SJC]

Hanny Alson got WOC sprint gold at the age of 20, they didn't give her a JWOC gold though (she had to settle for silver in that one)

But at least she had the opportunity to run in both.

Is anyone thinking of propsing to the IOF that JWOC and WMOC should be run at the same time as WOC in order to enhance their status ?

[EddieH]

Distracted wrote: "And the "only 55 amongst 45/50 in the vets A final" type argument - well if you're not good enough to qualify for that final, do you deserve to be champion?"

Well there is a problem here, and this is one that needs thinking out. The Champion could quite easily qualify from a weaker heat than a rival who ends up in the B final.

The solution as I see it is to ensure that in the heats everyone in the same class runs the same heat. E.g. all M45 run heat 1, all M50 heat 2 and all M55 heat 3 (or whatever depending on the class combinations chosen per course).

[Paul T]

Having two races in the day is great - it better justifies the travelling, is more sociable and spectator friendly. But why complicate things by arranging them as a qualifier and final. We don't feel the need to do that for middle or classic so are we doing it for sprints just to use up the day?
Why not call the first race a warmup, or training, or seeding event?
The second race is the Sprint Championships where everyone in a class runs the same course and the fastest is the champion.

[andy]

Well there is a problem here, and this is one that needs thinking out. The Champion could quite easily qualify from a weaker heat than a rival who ends up in the B final.

The solution as I see it is to ensure that in the heats everyone in the same class runs the same heat. E.g. all M45 run heat 1, all M50 heat 2 and all M55 heat 3 (or whatever depending on the class combinations chosen per course).

if there's a lot of worry about 'not qualifying' then leave the formats the same as this year, just on the same day / venue. Age classes have 2 counting runs, elites have a qualifier/final.

But if it's all qualifier/heats... just build the qualifier start list from the fabled single ranking list (!) and it can't go wrong.

[mharky]

Well there is a problem here, and this is one that needs thinking out. The Champion could quite easily qualify from a weaker heat than a rival who ends up in the B final.

Aint the heats meant to be seeded using the "ranking" system so that there are no weaker ones.

[Gross]

Aint the heats meant to be seeded using the "ranking" system so that there are no weaker ones.

aaaaaaaaHHHHHHHHHHHHaaaaaaaa..... but the competions are going 'open' so some johnny foreigner will come along and mess the system up & then Nopesport will explode

[EddieH]

Mharky, assuming that you have a decent entry of true 21 elites there would be no problem regarding veterans being placed as I suggested, as there will be plenty of seeded elites spread around the heats with scarcely any O35's worthy of seeding, and even those scattered around the age classes.

However I appreciate that when we get to juniors there would be a very real problem here. Placing all M/W20's in a single heat doesn't work.

[mharky]

So why have age classes bunched together? Instead of having 4 heats for 35-45 etc you could just treat it like you would the British Long Championships, heats & final for each age-group.

M35 heat, M35 final; W45 heat, W45 final...

That would mean a lot of courses in a small area. But the heats & final don't have to be in the same place. Just close enough to be convenient.

[Oldman]

I agree with Mharky, but why so many courses? Why not just map classes on to courses (like at the new Regional events) and have sufficient courses for the available start time period. Treat each class in a heat separately, so if the highest M70s on a course run by M60s, 65s and 70s are 14th, 18th and 27th, then those three are 1st, 2nd and 3rd.

[graeme]

How on earth do you know what has and hasn't been considered?

I must be psychic - now the more detailed minutes are up, it confirms I was right.
And since I'm on the Senior Competitions group, I know exactly how much consultation we got...

What do you mean by format. The only change in format would be having heats or not. What would anyone be giving up?

EITHER the Age group will have to give up the two-race format which worked so well this year (age groups are too small for meaningful qualifiers), OR the elite will have to give up having heats and a final in the biggest race of the year. You can't do both at the same time.

It is now clarified that "this can be achieved without reducing the quality for internationals and elite". I (and others) suggested a couple of years back that this could be done by putting each age class in the same heat, which I feel is a minimal change - but the ECSG disagreed. Maybe they changed their mind? I assume when they say brings the elite and international performers into close contact with the non-elite. they cant mean taking the hundreds of punters who currently run at the Sprint champs against the elite out of the event. Can they?

Mharky draws a good parallel with Håkan Eriksson and Hanny Alson, but misses the crucial point - they weren't prohibited from running in WMOC / JWOC simply because they chose to run at WOC. Nor should they have been.

Meanwhile, since such excellent progress is being made at a strategic level without worrying about detail, can I echo the loofa's point that spring is the best time. Alongside the JK, BOC, Tio, CSC, UKCup, FCC, UKRL, BMOC, World Cup and Jukola, with no clashes and time to prepare. I'm sure fixtures can sort it out...

Anyway, here's what will happen...

The events will be forced together.
We'll have a zillion different courses and mapscales.
The elite spint will collapse to maybe 10% of its current size.
Organisation will be taken over by people mainly interested in age groups, and the elite will lose the priority they currently enjoy over dates etc.
It'll be the week after/before the JK/BOC, so many wont be bothered to travel.
We'll pretend to have age group heats, but there will be so few in each class that pretty much everyone will make the final.
I'll spend most of the heat checking out the area in preparation for the final.

The map and course will be great, all the controls will be in the right place and everyone who goes will enjoy it.


anyway, enough for one night, I've got a WRE to control

[Gross]

anyway, enough for one night, I've got a WRE to control

wow... my hero:) and what difference does the 6 days being a WRE make to you as controller??? Zilch I guess:)

[andy]

EITHER the Age group will have to give up the two-race format which worked so well this year (age groups are too small for meaningful qualifiers), OR the elite will have to give up having heats and a final in the biggest race of the year. You can't do both at the same time.

Why can't you do both at the same time?

Can't think of any show-stopper

[graeme]

Andy,

You're right: I suppose you could have two different formats for the same event. You'd lose the massive heats that make the elite race such fun, and the qualifying a real but the same people would probably wind up in the final. But is this what is proposed? It has certainly never even been suggested to the senior events committee...

My objection is that the date seems to have become the driver, and the quality/format of the event an afterthought.

Graeme

[roadrunner]

age groups are too small for meaningful qualifiers

Sounds like we've got the age groups wrong then

If you want good competition, you need big enough age groups - so merge some of the existing ones. An example could be M/W21, M/W40+, M/W55+ which has been used before (not sure what's best for the juniors). As the event gains in popularity, increase the number of ages groups - easy!