Why don't you win all the time?

[HOCOLITE]

I can run fast I can read a map, I can make horrendous mistakes but I can't(my mum said you shouldn't say that) keep running for a long period. Despite my age and sex I'd give most a run for their money over a short distance, but increase the distance and I can't do it. I've been going swimming and to the gym regularly for over a year now and I managed to shave a minute off my time in the 5Km race at the weekend. However I was beaten by loads of punters who never train and never bother much. I think there is a physiological thing. I see people who can run and run and run but they can't step up a gear and go faster, it was the same in hockey the midfielders were those who ran for the whole game but never particularly fast but the wingers and backs had a turn of speed to nip past the opposition.

[Harley]

I think that most of the time I'm running the wrong course ...

the string course it is then - i've won every one i have run, although I did have to stoop to devious methods to win the (in)famous Titterstone Clee Hill String course 2002. Control on a sheep's skull, remember that one kiddies?

[Mrs H]

I've been going swimming and to the gym regularly for over a year now

Yes and I bet your swimming and gym performance have improved no end - but have you actually been out there and practiced running for longer? Maybe consciously going a bit slower to start with so you can keep going - there is no reason why you shouldn't be able to build up your range.

[Neil M40]

I've been going swimming and to the gym regularly for over a year now

Yes and I bet your swimming and gym performance have improved no end - but have you actually been out there and practiced running for longer? Maybe consciously going a bit slower to start with so you can keep going - there is no reason why you shouldn't be able to build up your range.

Mrs H has a point. I assume that some of the time at the gym is spent on a treadmill which is where you are getting your running done. There are significant differences between treadmill running and real running that mean that the benefits gained from treadmill training are not necessarily carried over into the real world. For a long and complex explanation of these differences see here http://www.pponline.co.uk/encyc/treadmill.html

In short, "When an athlete runs on the track, on roads or on firm ground, their legs create propulsive forces which accelerate their centre of mass and drive it forward", whereas "The key function of the leg muscles during treadmill running is not to produce propulsive forces but to re-position the legs so as to keep the centre of mass stable." Your muscles are doing different work. There are still benefits to be gained from treadmill running, but you need to do real running as well.

Edit : I should have added, if you are an orienteer some of that real running should be in terrain - again the work the muscles are doing is different.

[geomorph]

I've been going swimming and to the gym regularly for over a year now

Yes and I bet your swimming and gym performance have improved no end - but have you actually been out there and practiced running for longer?

There are significant differences between treadmill running and real running that mean that the benefits gained from treadmill training are not necessarily carried over into the real world.

I've never been able to swim (skin irritation), and hate gyms, so my phyiscal training is imbalanced too. I don't even road run anymore to reduce stresses, but that's just a personal thing with little to back it up. I've got some skates and roller skis to help diversify. Cycling is good too especially if you can get way from the traffic.

Goes back to what Neil said to Andy. If you can find/afford a coach to get you a properly structured programme, do it. If not do look at what people do on sites such as runners world and try as many as possible to find what suits you, generally this takes much longer and possibly may not be as successful.

ps make sure if you go down the coach route that they truly understand the needs of orienteering. There are a number of 'gym packages' out there which are just 'go faster stripes'. Maybe your club/club members can help you in this selection? I know that out there in the nopesport ether there's loads of knowledge on this.

[graeme]

I thought about this a bit, because there are a few non-O things which I actually got pretty good at pretty fast, but I never really got on top of orienteering for a number of reasons...

1/ Lack of natural talent. I trained pretty hard for running, but once I reached the stage of only getting beaten by people smaller/lighter than me, I reckoned I'd probably got as fast as I could.

2/ Ingrained bad habits. I learnt orienteering by racing on simple areas in the south east. Poor technique was never punished. Starting as an M21 I never did any technical training.

3/ No coaching: the only "squad" events I did was as coach on the SE squad, age 22 with my newly-minted BOF coach qualification. None of the squad trained as hard as I did, and all of them were technically superior - what use was I as a coach? The idea of being coached by a qualified know-nothing like myself made me skeptical of the whole coaching setup. But clubmates like Kitch and Scotia, coached from the start by people who really knew what they were talking about AND how to communicate it (like Martin Hyman & Peter Palmer), show how useful having a GOOD coach is.

4/ Inappropriate training: For years I ground out the mileage on the roads, trails and hills but never had the commitment to go and train in terrain with a map.

5/ Trying to race: for years I treated O-races like running races, flat out, dont stop, navigate in oxygen debt. Errors were an unavoidable act of God, one had simply to hope they wouldn't happen. I never stopped to work how little time I would lose by running easy at 95% effort. Jon Musgrave has a great demonstration for this which everyone should do once: on a run stop dead, and take a split while you study the map for as long as it takes to get a clear picture of the next few legs. Few people can manage more than 30secs standing still, which compared to a typical error is nothing.

6/ Reading the map. I've become overdependent on mapreading as a technique for finding flags. I tend to mess up when the map is "wrong" or dodgy, or just vague, and then panic. I can never cope with the first day abroad, with different mapping styles. As well as having better distance and direction judgement I suspect the top guys have a better feel for whether the map is "wrong", or they are in the wrong place.

And finally, I don't win all the time because I don't want to: if I really wanted to win all the time, I could run M45S.

None of the above stopped me from winning some of the time - I've beaten everyone good in the UK within 10 years of my age. The joy of orienteering compared with almost any other sport is that sometimes a combination of good luck and good performance (and sometimes good teammates) gives you a result way better than your average ability level, and it's days like that which keep me coming back.

[graeme]

One other thing, slightly tangential.

I've been a member of several running/O clubs, and a striking feature is how the leading
"group" are all about the same standard. At OUOC in the late 80's, about a dozen of us were "top-M21L/mid-pack elite", many after only 2-3 years; nobody went on to make the GB squad. 15 years ago at Livingston AC we had about 6-7 people all running around 32 min 10k/71 min half marathon*, but only one guy broke 31 or 70. Interlopers had similar numbers on the fringes of the GB squad, but only Kitch (who generally trained alone) made it to WOC. In 2001 my US running club had 7-8 people running ~36 mins 10kms. Within a year my performance was slithering to match.

and so it goes.

It seems to be very difficult to reach the level above your peers, whatever that level is.

* Nationally, in Scotland this would put you in the leading pack in most races. Nowadays you'd have to go off the front and run alone to do those times. It seems that levelling off applies at a level above the club as well.

[ifor]

I can see Graemes group leveling thing in straight running. In races with a mass start running off the front by yourself takes a different mental aproach. It is easy to just stick in with your pears till till your aproching the finish and then put the boot in apropriatly. To realy improve you have to start racing at a higher level.

For O this should not be a problem. For most events you are out by yourself so runing at your speed should just be the natural thing. I guess if it realy dose happen it must come from the shared training aproach that will happen.

Looks like the the I can navigate but can't run option is winning. this makes me suprised we don't get more people for night events as that is what helps toughen up the navigational chalenge.

Ifor

[mappingmum]

This is the most interesting thread in here for months! Great! I love the toggle boxes and on-line voting. Can we have one a week?

Come on then, who posted the "I do win all the time" vote? !

It would be interesting to note the sample size - how many have voted?

Too much emphasis in the discussion in the running element. In my opinion (or level) it's 70% technical and mental, only 30% running. You don't have to run fast to post a decent time. A clean run will get you up there, every time . . . . . .

[Mrs H]

It would be interesting to note the sample size - how many have voted?

that's what the numbers in the bars signify - also the words "Total Votes" are a bit of a give away

[Familytaxi driver]

Ok all you talented people out there. You can give some instructive and constructive criticism/advice if you so wish.
Here my history and "training regime"

Over 40 + unfit started orienteering 9 months ago as 1/2 the family did and I was left at home. Can map read + use a compass from hillwalking days.
My method was to start on the local events - or biggerones if I was Taxi driver and do orange courses. Ran the bits I physically could walked the rest. Main problem was scale of the map. Got my orange badge. (didn't claim it or sew on )

Read a couple of books on the theory and looked back at them every few months as I felt ready to add + use some more tips. Moved onto light green and found a great summer series(come + try it) which I could go to and do lots of light green courses at a low price. Got my light green badge - with the proviso that was at smaller events.

I have been pleasantly surprised (at the level I'm at) that you don't have to be super speedy to do fairly well. So obviously I need to work on navigation + technique as well.

I'm running more and more of each course now but can't run for very long. So now I'm going to pick the easier terrain and do some green/age class events. My theory is the more I do and try to run the fitter I should get. I'm now at the stage when I WANT to get faster + better. I swim several times a week but not always flat out. I've decided to go to the local harriers adult runners to help to get me actually running.
The weekends I can't orienteer I'm trying to get to a local permanent course and having planned a course to run it. That has the advantage for me that It confirms I'm in the right place! and from what's been said above should help as I'm "running" in the terrain.
No coach (although son does a fairly good (if grumpy teenager job) of advising if he's in the right mood. Nothing helpwise at local club and no regular training done there.
What else could I/should I be doing?

[Mrs H]

Blimey that sounds pretty impressive to me - I am not a talented orienteer - but I am someone who is just a few years down the exact same line as you. I think the time has come for you to get outside your comfort zone - both physically and technically. It happened to me after about 6 months when I attempted my first green standard course - the W40S at British champs in Graythwaite It was a bit of a shock but I got round and it gave me a lot of confidence to have a go at other stuff.

It's a shame your club don't do any coaching - perhaps you could latch onto on of these BOF Coaching Days if they have one near you.

[ifor]

Too much emphasis in the discussion in the running element. In my opinion (or level) it's 70% technical and mental, only 30% running. You don't have to run fast to post a decent time. A clean run will get you up there, every time . . . . . .

But those figures do not match the poll results. We curently have 36% ok technicaly but slow running and 30 % slow and no good technicaly so a good 66% not running as fast as they think they should. We only have 9% thinking they are ok running but no good technicaly...

Personaly when I was still fit and running OK a year or two back I would of said that I was loosing about the same amount due to technical reasons and running speed. The technical lose would not be getting lost more a case of being to conservative with the navigation and slowing down too much. I would be better than most but I know that compared to the very best I was just technicaly slower... e.g. When realy fit I would be about even running wise with Clive Hallet but typicaly out on an event Clive would still be 5-10% quicker. Then even at my fitest there were also people with 5-10% on the running speed especialy in terain. Curently I am definatly in the too slow camp.

Ifor

[SeanC]

Family taxi driver wrote: " Nothing helpwise at local club and no regular training done there. What else could I/should I be doing?"

Coaching at club level can often be limited. We could debate the reasons for this, but that wont help you, you'll need to be pro-active. Try to get involved in as many post race car park/pub discussions as possible. Would anyone in your club be willing to shadow you for a few controls? Also you could try planning a small event. If your club gives you an experienced planner as a mentor you will get some coaching as part of the planning process. When you're looking for control sites you'll be walking slowly, studying the map and studying features carefully. Its a good way of improving technique. If you've got enough time consider volunteering to help map a small area (though you may not with your taxi driver duties).

As Mrs. H says, you could start trying harder courses. Consider doing some night orienteering - that sharpens up the technique.

Can't comment on running training, I'm in the "can't run for toffee/not that fit" category.

Finally, if you live in the south east, you can go to the DFOK score/training event at Happy Valley on the 19th July. Improving orienteers will have the option to view the courses during the week before the event as well as some notes on techniques. Which is a blatent plug but there you go.

[Familytaxi driver]

Family taxi driver wrote: " Nothing helpwise at local club and no regular training done there. What else could I/should I be doing?"

Coaching at club level can often be limited. We could debate the reasons for this, but that wont help you, you'll need to be pro-active. Try to get involved in as many post race car park/pub discussions as possible. Would anyone in your club be willing to shadow you for a few controls? Also you could try planning a small event. If your club gives you an experienced planner as a mentor you will get some coaching as part of the planning process.
As Mrs. H says, you could start trying harder courses. Consider doing some night orienteering - that sharpens up the technique.

There's a few good ideas for me to work on thanks!

I think the pub discussion one sounds a good starter.

Getting out my comfort zone and risking a bit more to learn more is what I need to do next I think. Greens for the summer evenings from now on

I want to get to TD5 so I can enter my age class by Sept as that gets past another problem/hassle of trying to enter on the day and maps running out etc. Cost will go up though!
Night O - I really like it! I did some orange courses last winter when I was running orange in the daylight and really enjoyed them. Added a bit of spice and oomph and yes I did find I had to concentrate harder on the actual terrain. Roll on this winter -although our local league has Orange Green + Blue courses and now I suppose I'll have to do Green in the dark!

Planning - a bit time consuming for me now but a good idea for another year - when the teenagers leave home and I spend less time washing + taxiing.