Taking Pictures at Events

[SJC]

cites "requests from event organisers" as being the reason.

As an event organiser I could envisage this being a very awkward position to be put in.
Imagine receieving an e-mail from someone you have never heard of, asking if they can come and take photographs at your event. This sounds a reasonable request from a commercial photographer. But do you say:

1) Yes. Only to discover that the person is in fact on the sex offenders register. Unlikely, but nevertheless a possibility.

2) No. Simple answer, but hardly the way to promote the sport.

3) Not my decision. Go talk to BOF.

Option 3 is the easy way out, and having read this thread the one which I would now take.

[distracted]

For commercial photographers, or people taking photos which are definitely going to end up in the public domain e.g. Compass Sport, local paper, club website etc, I can understand. The "policy" is clearly related to child protection.

However, having a blanket statement like this which covers anyone taking photos, even if this might be a few friends on the run-in or some of the elites at a spectator control, seems overkill...

[Kitch]

Option 3 is one way to go.

At the same time we could all committ to making such a request for every event we go to.
Organisers refer all our queries to BOF
BOF gets swamped
BOF changes stupid rule

Alternatively and preferably
BOF is paying lip service to dumb ass government guidelines. (clearly they would not admit as much)
Everyone should do likewise - no-body request permission - organisers don't have a problem with beurocratic paper storm
Organiser sees someone apparently using a camera.
Organiser assumes that as they haven't asked permission then the someone isn't really taking photos - just practising with theier zoom or something - after all people wouldn't be so wicked as to flout the rules

Combine the continental approach - "yeah, the rules - whatever"
and the Soviet approach "I'm sorry sir but your camera can't have been stolen - we have no crime here. You probably lost it"

the trouble with us is that we are too used to queueing - if there is a rule we have to follow it.
No
Break free - fly my little childern, fly !

And anyway - where in this whole equation is the parent's perspective ? How many parents in orienteering think this is a risk or an issue.


While I am here I would like to contrast the recent edition of Focus with the recent edition of The Fell Runner
Focus - I found it strange that there were many pictures of young orienteers but not a name caption to be found - then it dawned - as we all know - not an editorial oversight - I found it very very depressing.
The Fell Runner is packed with pictures of kids, everyone enthusiatically racing or smiling - enjoying themselves, every one named. In fact I'd go so far as to say there is a positive effort to show and name as many kids as possible. And you know what its a very uplifting thing to see - I can imagine the pride a kid gets from people seeing them in print.
Junior fell running in England is getting bigger and bigger.

[Kitch]

Template 7 is here (last page).

read template 6 - carefully

[LostOldTimer]

Taking photographs at Public orienteering events is not illegal whether they be of adults, children or simply the scenery.
No permission need to be sought to take photographs for your own personal use in a public environment. Just because an organisation (british orienteering) make a rule (whether as a result of the Sports Council policy or on their own initiative), doesnt mean the rule is correct or needs to be followed.

[SIman]

read template 6 - carefully

I promise not to take any photographs of waterskiers.

[Simon E]

Just to say that we did consider the Osafe policy on photography for the JK and how we would put the policy into practice given that I (Helen not Simon ) might have to spend the entire weekend wandering around with a clipboard adding names to it.

The wording on page 6 of the programme was the best we felt in the light of the potential 3000 photographers we might have at the JK. We did agree this with Mike Hamilton beforehand - that in effect all JK participants were signed up to the O safe policy and should make themselves aware of the policy on photography.

We then made it clear in our statement that anyone who felt that the photography was intrusive or inappropriate should then make this known to the organisers and we would take appropriate action.

Simon's other half

[Ravinous]

So just seen Template 7. A simple form.

(I see Kitch beat me to it....) Template 6 refers to WaterSkiing - made me laugh
I guess they used theirs as a template - Couldn't find the British Water Ski Child Protection Policy and Procedures anywhere on the BOF website!

"British Orienteering Parental/Carer and Young Person Consent Form
This form is to be signed by the Legal Guardian of a young person under the age of 18, together with the young person. It
provides permission for images of the young person to be used. Please note that if you have more than one child under the
age of 18 registered with the Club you will need to complete a separate form for each young person.
......................................................................................................(club/organisation) recognises the need to ensure the welfare and safety of all young
people in Waterskiing. As part of our commitment to ensure the safety of young people we will not permit photographs, video
images or other images of young people to be taken or used without the consent of the parents/carers and the young
person.
The………………………………………………………………… (Club/Organisation) will follow the guidance for the use of images
of young people, as detailed within the British Water Ski Child Protection Policy and Procedures".

Well, we all make mistakes....

So the O-safe guidelines has the following:-

How to deal with someone who is using photographic or filming equipment who has
not sought permission
There will be occasions, from time to time, when someone you do not recognise will be taking
photographs or filming participants and/or spectators at an event. If this situation arises, you
should have the confidence and courage to challenge the individual/s to ensure and maintain
the safety of the event.
You should:
o Approach the individual;
o Challenge the individual as to who they are and why they are using photographic or
filming equipment without permission;
o Make them aware that they should have sought permission from the organisers to
use their equipment and advise them of the protocol;
o Make them aware that if they are seen to be doing anything untoward, they will be
reported to the Police.

The full document is at http://www.britishorienteering.org.uk/d ... licyv9.pdf
but there is a ver10 document now as BOF had just sent it to me - so it should be updated soon I guess.

[brooner]

read template 6 - carefully

I promise not to take any photographs of waterskiers.

Oh well, makes a change from them copying things off the FA

In case anyone wants to know, and "follow the guidance for the use of images
of young people, as detailed within the British Water Ski Child Protection Policy and Procedures." they are available here

[greywolf]

read template 6 - carefully

The O-safe policy contains the acknowledgement: "British Orienteering wishes to thank British Water Ski and Penny Matkin for allowing the use of material they have developed...." (or should that read "cut and pasted" )

You will find that it is one of the conditions of the funding which British Orienteering receives from the Sports Councils that we have Child Protection procedures in place as advised by the Child Protection in Sport unit.

The CPSU guidelines simply list "Use of video and photography at events" as one of the essential inclusions in a list of procedures and systems - they don't prescribe the details of the procedure.

[greywolf]

There will be occasions, from time to time, when someone you do not recognise will be taking photographs or filming participants and/or spectators at an event. If this situation arises, you should have the confidence and courage to challenge the individual/s to ensure and maintain the safety of the event.
You should:
o Approach the individual;
o Challenge the individual as to who they are and why they are using photographic or filming equipment without permission;
o Make them aware that they should have sought permission from the organisers to
use their equipment and advise them of the protocol;
o Make them aware that if they are seen to be doing anything untoward, they will be reported to the Police.

Brilliant! So taken literally, any tourists in the middle of Edinburgh on the afternoon of the 26th January who saw some orienteers go by needed permission from EUOC before taking holiday snaps of each other??

More to the point - we don't do our sport in controllable indoor arenas, but outdoors, where the rest of the world has a legal right to be - event organisers have absolutely no mechanism or right to grant or withhold permission to third parties to use a camera in the competition area - so most of this is unenforceable rubbish.

Obviously we need to report anyone who is "behaving in an untoward manner" - but to walk up to random punters in a forest who just happen to have a camera slung round their neck and "make them aware that...they will be reported to the Police" is asking for a smack in the mouth....

[LostOldTimer]

If the following is British Orienteering policy, or protocol, or whatever they are calling it...
"o Challenge the individual as to who they are and why they are using photographic or
filming equipment without permission;
o Make them aware that they should have sought permission from the organisers to
use their equipment and advise them of the protocol;"...

the it is absolute nonesense. Anyone has a legal right to take any photographs in the public arena, and any orienteering event is a public event. It is NOT illegal to take photographs of adults, children, scenery or whatever. No-one needs to seek permission to take photographs at events.

Well said greywolf:
but to walk up to random punters in a forest who just happen to have a camera slung round their neck and "make them aware that...they will be reported to the Police" is asking for a smack in the mouth....

The statement "
Make them aware that if they are seen to be doing anything untoward, they will be reported to the Police"
Is wholly provocative and insinuating. Does that mean following that conversation that person will be spied upon and nothing less than victimisation... very dangerous.

[Steler]

Just

[Steler]

Just another stupid rule that BO is going to try to impose on us. What with taxing children (some call it a levy, I call it tax) at the same rate as adults (not even the labour government has gone this far yet) and all the other stupid rules that are being forced on us I have decided that I will give up all organising of events until my club joins a rebel group outside of BO.

A number of years ago when I was chairman of my club I was asked by a BOF councillor if I would put to my club a proposal to set up an alternative to BOF as he and many others were so disillusioned by what was going on. I now think it was the biggest mistake of my orienteering life not to agree to go with the idea. We are just being forced into the ruination of our sport by an organisation that pampers to government demands. I am sure that if peoples livelyhoods didn't depend on the finance that comes from government then most of these ideas would never be heard of.

One last observation. You might be surprised how much clubs could save by getting their own insurance for events. It's not as difficult as most people think. The savings would easily finance a simplified organisation which could survive without government funding.

Sorry for rant but this photo issue is yet another stupid idea that is completely impossible to police and just puts organisers at risk of legal action if something goes wrong.

[DM]

If the CPSU want to prove they can get to grips with this important issue, why don't they prove they have some teeth and sort out some of the places where abuses are known to take place, such as swimming pools.

Every time I go to our local pool, Hazel Grove, I point out to staff that people are on the balcony overlooking the pool, sitting under "no mobile phones" signs using their phones. I've even seen them in the changing rooms. The staff don't do anything, and this is in a borough that has had a court case over the issue a few years ago. Get that sorted and then move to other areas.