Emit and SI confidence

[Paul Frost]

I like the DIY amateurism that we have today;

As long as the amateurs can provide the perfect professional service we all seem to want now!
We are all quick to complain when things don't go right, and that the full results, winsplits, RouteGadget, splitsbrowser etc. aren't available within an hour or so of the last finisher.

As regards competition being a good thing, some of our Scandinavian friends seem to be telling us that they only have one system and they don't seem to be suffering.

The problem is that the orienteering market in the UK is very small, so too many products dilute the demand, so it's difficult to make any money selling it that you can then invest in future development. Virtually all the orienteering software developers are one man bands and probably part time as well.
OCAD is the exception, but then it seems to have a world wide monopoly. Yet is continues to innovate and is not very expensive (compared to most software), without any competition.

[Mr timE]

I have to agree with FromTheGrassyKnoll here, the reason I got involved with Emit was that Si was just not suitable at the time for the military, we wanted a more robust and simple system that did not have to have a computer and where we could leave controls out for long periods, even permanently. I say at the time, because Si have since responded and improved their product so it can work as a small system and you do not have to always wake up controls. They also suddenly upgraded their controls for JK2003 when mention was made of using Emit instead. I now find it very useful to be able to pressure Norway with Si developments and get them to improve their product, in particular producing UK bespoke software. The problems we will always have with both systems is that by default they have to be somewhat generic to be able to cater for all markets. I am currently working on a military project where we have had to change our business methods and regulations to suit a COTS package because it is no longer practical or affordable to build and change out own bespoke software. Unless UK orienteering is prepared to go down that avenue we are perhaps better off living with two competing systems, which also helps when we do go overseas and have to use a none familiar system. Michael Napier has proved it is possible to accept input from either system and run all levels of events.

[stodge]

I like the DIY amateurism that we have today; out of this DIY attitude comes new inovations.

Please be careful about statements like this. I cant speak for Emit but many SI gurus are IT Programmers and Consultants just applying their skills to SI (mostly for free) as apposed to their day job.
I know the definition of Amateurism is not getting paid..........

Certainly Autodownload has not been developed by an amateur programmer. I think I am right in saying FatBOY that it will be ported to emit if a club is interested.

The diverse nature of software around is driven by the need... OE2003 was a pain for WCH, so we encouraged the development of Autodownload. Our events now use less helpers and are pretty much stress free for our 4 Si team leaders.

I agree that a central forum for event software and hardware is a great idea, we just need a volunteer to run it who is independant.

There is so much misinformation out there about SI, and by the sounds of it also EMIT. People like myself also need to help next door smaller clubs, now coming in to EPS by spreading good practice and experience. I have taught people from Wrekin, COBOC and POTOC for example.

[stodge]

So -- lets get going...
Top Tip No.1 from an experienced SI chap which applies to any EPS system.

You do not need so many download stations at the finish of large events.
If you lay out the download consoles like a Sainsburys Checkout, rather than linearly (is that a word) you get much better efficiency of through flow. The key to getting huge numbers through download is not more download consoles, but better marshalling in to the queues.....

By keeping the number of download stations smaller, the network load and therefore database server load goes down. - Faster downloads and more reliability..

[FatBoy]

Just to clarify my comment. What I tried to say was that anybody running a download has the skill to fix any problem, just not total knowledge. Maybe the words I use aren't correct, but what I mean is a line like "check the ports in device manager to see if it's listed there" isn't going to draw a blank face, and once told forever remembered. Perhaps I'm wrong...

I think the competition is improving things, but as Paul says is it a big enought market place orienteering in the UK? No doubt Emit and Si are "copying" each other's developments and minimising their weaknesses compared to each other, but on an international scale. I know OE2003 is/has been expanded to use Emit after Stephan's fall out with Si, but also OE2003 is on an international scale (due I would suggest to it being the original recommded software from Si rather than being any good).

Personally I don't want it to be a single market as I don't have any faith that the solution chosen would be a good one. Also I think many of the lovely diverse event formats we have in the UK would go by the wayside. I don't just say that because I'm a supplier in that market (I accepted before I wrote it that it's never going to make me rich, as Paul says...). Harware wise whether it was ever sensible to have 2 in the UK (not saying which one it should've been!) there's no way we're going back on that with the level of investment clubs have made.

[JimB]

When my local O group offerred classes in O software in the past, there were lots of takers for course drafting and map drafting software, but fewer for event software...and almost none who stuck with event software. The difference, I think, is that there's a lot more pressure involved with using event software. If you run into a problem with map drafting software, you post a message on some orienteering list, and go for a cup of tea with ginger. When event software hits the fan, you have lines of sweaty nopesport-like orienteers accumulating while paper spews out of the printer onto the ground, the message on the screen makes no sense, and the software has become intransigent. Maybe the cable's flaky for good measure. Everyone's computer use nightmare. Only the most confident apply...meaning it's down to one or two people per club.

I think this calls for ruthless simplicity in event software (so that as many people as feasible feel comfortable with it), and also extreme transparency in how it works, for least obstacles to troubleshooting.

[Paul Frost]

I agree Jim
That's why I hope Aut-O-Download will get taken up by more clubs, it is so simple to use. As FatBoy says, it will not make him rich, but it may make him popular.

[JimB]

For software, an additional option, in addition to commisioned software, commercial competition and commercial monopoly, is open source. Orienteering has lots of bright technical people able to contribute, so maybe this approach would work well. A downside might be not compensating those people for their efforts (though open source need not necessarily mean freeware...every novel ever published is open source, but few are free...but open source software often is for various reasons).

[SeanC]

What is Aut-O-Download?

[Paul Frost]

To save FatBoy any accusations of advertising.

Aut-O-Download is a piece of event management software. It is very simple to use and setup. I think it will enable not so "techie" people to run a local event.

The principle behind Aut-O-Download is why should you need to pre-enter people when the vast majority of competitors will have completed their course and their e-card is registered on the national database?

It also has the advantage that it allows data to be imported & exported in the IOF XML data standard. So importing course data from Condes & Ocad , entries from some online entry systems and exporting results to RouteGadget etc. is very easy.

Visit the website for more info.

[SIman]

Stephan Kraemer has rewritten his suite of programs, OE2003, MT2003 etc, so that they now work with Emit as well as SI.
Has anyone tried it?

[JimB]

That's why I hope Aut-O-Download will get taken up by more clubs, it is so simple to use. As FatBoy says, it will not make him rich, but it may make him popular.

It does things that I've long wanted event software to do, and the screen shots look suitably simple. I'm eager to try it sometime.

[EriOL]

Don't know about Norway or Finland but here in Sweden pretty much every club uses the same event operating software (OLA) which was specially developed for the Swedish federation. This, coupled with the online entry system which is also pretty much universally used amongst clubs, means that assistance can quite easily be obtained from other clubs. From my own experience, the assistance from the system developers has been pretty good as well.

Admittedly, it is a relatively complex system but it is suitable for use with SI, EMIT and even old fashioned punch cards and does make the production of start lists, results etc very simple.

I don't think "pretty much every club" is really the truth. Many of the clubs that run their events with SI still use OE2003 or related software. OLA doesn't have any support for relays yet either so for those it is mostly the Stephan Krämer-created OL-STAFFEL.

But it's true that close to 100% of individual EMIT-events in Sweden use OLA since it works much better than any of the alternatives for EMIT. OLA also is available in english (or at least was designed to be from the start), which should make it a possible alternative for British clubs too...

Now I start to sound like a salesman so I'll list some good and bad points about OLA:

+ Support for SI, EMIT and pinpunches.
+ Easy to get access to the database and create your own add-on programs
+ Available in Swedish and English and should be simple enough to add support for other languages
+ Has support for official Swedish seeding algorithms
+ Can be used for both single events and multi-day events

- No support for relays (yet)
- Quite big and complicated with lots of stuff that is unnecessary for ordinary events

[tokoloshe]

One of the problems today is that a few people with IT skills are always required to run at least the download. This puts considerable pressure on them as they are often key to other parts of event organisation as well.

We need simple systems where, with a modicum of IT common sense, the package you are using has buttons or options, with on screen help, that will enable most issues to be sorted without having to get into the works. Like Paul - that is one of the reasons why I like Auto O Download.

Lets hope the FCC this weekend works well - I think all of our gurus are away elsewhere.

[andy]

- Quite big and complicated with lots of stuff that is unnecessary for ordinary events

It's interesting that your plusses are mostly 'stuff that is unnecessary for ordinary events' and then it's also your main minus point!
Supporting everything under the sun will often end up like this - unless the software is written very well.

I also find (at larger events) that problems can often be caused by hardware issues and are often lumped together as being 'computer problems'. The big queues on JK day 2 were caused by the server losing power and restarting (from what I saw anyway) so a small amount of confidence in your own hardware / networking / power supply knowledge is often a major bonus.
I know the purpose of this thread isn't to discuss this but thought i'd throw it in anyway!

Back on topic: Major events are always going to have support from 'IT' people. If you're worried about it enough then you'll make sure you have the structure there to support it. A carefully planned event with IT support in whatever form will generally be pulled off without major incident (the JK might have had it's flaws but none were disasterous).
I believe the problem only lies with very small events - 'colour coded' affairs with 100/200 people. You might not necessarily have the IT people around to help and it's events like this that software such as Aut-O-Download will be in their element - where it's 1 laptop, no networking, minimal power requirements etc etc.

Disclaimer: I've never worked with Aut-O-Download so if I'm wrong in anything I've said please correct me.