Waterproof maps at the National..

[Mr. Furness]

just something to note (bearing in mind i haven't seen the maps you are all talking of..) i used some waterproof maps in the past which were 'shiny' (they were like very thin plastic sheet to handle). i imagine they would be next to useless for night o, but any mud etc on them wiped off if memory is correct. they were maps of barbate in southern spain (world cup 2003..?) surely these would be good if they are as i remember?

edit: post from duncan refers to phoenix log o maps, maybe these are similar?

[Blanka]

The Czech 5 Days (and many other events in the Czech Republic) have used waterproof maps for years. They tell you in the details the maps are on waterproof paper and you can bring your own bag if you want to protect them even further, and no one seems to have a problem with it.

This is what MV did yesterday, with the extra bonus of providing the map bags for people to use if they so wish. Surely that's the way to go if we are to save the planners the hassle of bagging maps? I might even be tempted to go as far as saying, in the details, "bring your own map bag if you want one". It works in other countries, so why not in Britain?

[DaveR]

We used these yesterday at an ELO local event and it stood up to some pretty tough bog and wind and rain situations, but I couldn'#t get over how flimsy it felt once wet - at least it meant I had the whole course planned by number two as I was worried my map was going to disintegrate. Fell hands first into a few bogs and it came out with no print off or anything - I was impressed but at the same time totally lacking in confidence!

I was at this event too and would agree that the map felt flimsy when wet although I didn't rip it. However I was quite gentle with it and even then I managed to rub off the printing at various (fortunately non essential) bits.

[Godders]

I found the map at the ELO event good in that it was much easier to fold than when you've got a bag. I did loose a bit of print on the folds so wouldn't be keen on using it for a full length classic race.

[Ant W]

I had the problem of picking up 2 maps at the start (13:00) yesterday - lost me 5 seconds or so. Not a problem for my standard but maybe for others. Support the idea, though - do the maps really need to be constantly separated or just given a good flip-through etc. similar to what one does with printer paper before loading?

[D,J,J&Ms Dad]

I first came across Pretex 'waterproof' paper at the Swiss in 2005. I considered using it for printing maps but discounted it after a few comments about the mud retention issue.

Back in September last year there was a Nope thread started by Simon E all about 'waterproof' maps and the general feeling was it was the way ahead so I ordered a quantity of it from the German manufacturer. Since then we have found the majority of our map printing is on this material - and mostly used very successfully.

I hope I can answer some of the questions raised in this thread partly as an orienteer and partly as a printer.

Yes, the maps appear to stick together but no more than ordinary paper. It is just that plastic bags come apart very easily.

Wet Pretex gets flimsy: not a big problem if you run with your map folded. I did not notice a problem yesterday.

Muddy maps are difficult to clean. Yes, I struggled up one of the steep banks at the National and made my map muddy, luckily not on a part of my course still to cover. It does come off quite easily if you can find water - not always possible I know. I scrubbed it when I got home and it cleaned fairly well and the image stayed on!

I believe MV did exactly the right thing in supplying bags for those who wanted them. They did state it quite clearly in theri very comprehensive advance info.

Duncan mentions putting pressure on printing companies to make improvements. I am afraid that printers do not produce paper, just print on it. We have used Pretex because of the comments in the earlier thread. We are happy to try other materials and we are open to suggestions, however there is a trade-off with cost, availability, environment etc. I did however feed back info to the German manufacturers this afternoon and they have replied - see below.

Print rub. I didn't feel this was a problem with the maps yesterday. Our laser printers are reasonably speedy but we slow them right down when printing maps to increase the fusing time. On past occasions when we have not done this indeed white lines do appear all too easily.

If anyone wants to know more about Pretex specifically, I can give them the web site but if you type Pretex paper into Google, you should get it anyway.

The reply from the manufacturer follows, and indeed it was news to me that the paper is not truly waterproof. Also, I learned a bit about recycling!

"Pretex is water resistant, not waterproof. Roughness - it is relatively smooth however grease, oil, mud will eventually mark the product if not removed quickly. Pretex is not recyclable as it contains cellulose, acrylics & polyester fibres. If it was 100% of any one of these it would be recyclable - it's a blend of all 3. From an environmental aspect it can be buried in a landfill & after 60 - 90 days it will breakdown because of composting. It can also be burnt & not give off harmful gases. I hope both these two alternatives make it acceptable to environmental issues."

Just like SI/EMIT there are advantages/disadvantages with 'waterproof' and bagged maps. Personally I like Blanka's suggestion best - supply the waterproof maps and let people bring their own bags if they want to use them....and for bigger events do what MV did.

Finally, I see the next FCC this coming weekend is also using Pretex, unbagged, but they have told us in advance what the map size is. How sensible!

ps Yes, we did print the maps at both the JOK and the National last weekend.

[T5]

The info MV gave about map-bag options was spot on. I decided not to take a mapbag as a) the last time I tried to bag a map on the run it took ages and b) I'd find it easier to re-fold just the map, rather than the bag. There was some minor rub-off at folds and luckily I didn't pick up too many mud splatters.

However, I did struggle to pick out some of the detail on the map. Control 2 on M21L was a rough open clearing in white woodland. I didn't see the clearing on the map till I was at home - it was only about 0.5mm across, with not a great deal of contrast between the white and yellow. Luckily it wasn't far from a distinct veg boundary and the kite was clearly visible. I ended up with mud splatters that were more distinct (but that was my bag choice)

I've previously mentioned about planners not breaking circles around adjacent fine detail. They did that here, but I thought the breaks could have been larger - there were situations where the circle was broken around a dot-knoll, but barely any white visible between the two. When the brown and pink are such similar hues it blends into one when you're reading a map in terrain. And immediately south of the finish there was a control on a wet pit - the detail was almost completely obscured by the control/finish circles. In my oxygen deprived state when I saw a control and glanced at my map the initial thought was it would be the depression to the south. Luckily I spotted my adjacent control (veg boundary) before running off in the wrong direction.

Perhaps this just means I need to get my eyes checked...

[andy]

I actually really like them, though I do agree about the mud problem - once a certain part gets muddy it's near on impossible to get it off whereas with a bag you can wipe it off really easily.

They are being used at the ESOC SOL this weekend and it's looking likely they are going to be the norm (certainly in Scotland as Stirling Surveys seem to have adopted the paper) so make sure you bring your own map bag to events if you want to use one.

[Dave]

I think that they are a good idea, they worked well at the Swiss last year. I think they are better because its easier to fold them small, the mud didn't seem too much of a problem for me personally, the only issue was at the start, because I had gloves on (although they were thin) it took me 5-10seconds to separate out 1 map.

[Adventure Racer]

Didn't do the national, but ran in the Southern Nights and in the day event after the Midland Nights, and in both cases was very happy with the map (the OD day event wasn't that hard a test, but the Southern Nights was certainly very wet). Normally I'd consider myself a relative expert at falling over and getting mud on things - I have even destroyed maps when in unsealed bags in the past, and at one recent event had to run off the bit of map I still had - but bow to Fatboy's superiority in this area! In general I definitely prefer waterproof maps - in night events in the wet there is generally the problem of glare from the map bag, which is worse than anything I can imagine you'd get from any waterproof paper.

[IanD]

I've previously mentioned about planners not breaking circles around adjacent fine detail. They did that here, but I thought the breaks could have been larger - there were situations where the circle was broken around a dot-knoll, but barely any white visible between the two. When the brown and pink are such similar hues it blends into one when you're reading a map in terrain. And immediately south of the finish there was a control on a wet pit - the detail was almost completely obscured by the control/finish circles. In my oxygen deprived state when I saw a control and glanced at my map the initial thought was it would be the depression to the south. Luckily I spotted my adjacent control (veg boundary) before running off in the wrong direction.

I shall try to remember this comment next time I'm sitting at my PC breaking circles on OCAD. The breaks for dot knolls look absolutely fine on the screen, but I take your point that they are inadequate on the printed map. And I didn't break the circle for the pit because I couldn't see it's relevance for a vegetation boundary on the far side of a track; I should have realised that anything with a kite on it is indeed relevant.

The RouteGadget link from the event results page is finally working if you want to put your route up.

[Haze]

must say im not really convinced with these waterproof maps. like many of the folks who ran at the national last sunday mine got covered in mud that stained the paper. luckly it only stained the area i wasnt using but when looking over the map after i wouldve had a real problem with the open and the wooded. (pale yellow and white) as you couldnt really tell the difference. oh and without the map case it didnt give that satisfaction of knowing you still have hold of your map because of the thickness in your hand.
still was a really good event and enjoyed my course and the area!

[Haze]

must say im not really convinced with these waterproof maps. like many of the folks who ran at the national last sunday mine got covered in mud that stained the paper. luckly it only stained the area i wasnt using but when looking over the map after i wouldve had a real problem with the open and the wooded. (pale yellow and white) as you couldnt really tell the difference. oh and without the map case it didnt give that satisfaction of knowing you still have hold of your map because of the thickness in your hand.
still was a really good event and enjoyed my course and the area!

[PeteL]

Pretex...can be buried in a landfill & after 60 - 90 days it will breakdown because of composting.

As a waste management pedant - paper does not 'compost' in landfill, it is most likely to be subject to anaerobic degradation with the main gaseous emission being Methane - both explosive and a significant contributor to global warming. I guess the environmnetal fate of our maps pales into insignificant though when compared to the miles we invariably drive to events.

The point about slowing down the laser printer - is this something that most printers would do or should we pass on this nugget to Steve at Stirling Surveys?

[MarkM]

I wasn't at the national event (I was at the almost unattended scotjos weekend) but I have used the new paper at smaller events. I had trouble looking at the long legs across the map as the paper wouldn't stay rigid as I ran. At the o-ringen I used another kind of waterproof paper (tyvek) which was fine, maybe that's the answer?