Ashamed to be British

[rocky]

DIDSCO, i hear what you're saying, but moaning gets nothing done. what action do you propose?

[Barny of Blandford]

Just a few thoughts

How do the African nations manage to produce gold medal winners when they cannot often afford to even find the money to give them a tracksuit?

I think I heard it said that Canada have just invested millions in winter sports and are now holding a post mortem into why they were so bad and got so few medals of any colour

The most successful systems have been the communist systems (of which I am certainly not a supporter!!!)
and that involved a lot of nasties and dubious practices

Certain countries have certain advantages
Runners from altitude - particularly Rift Valley
Scandanavians for cross country/alpine skiing
Swimmers from developed nations which have money to provide swimming pools
And I could go on

I would agree that a better system would produce better results because of long term planning but there does seem to be an assumption in this country (and in many others) these days that we all have a right to be 'professional' sportsman and be supported by the state.

I could then put up arguments about do you have a 'sport for all' system or do you have an 'elitist system' and if it is possible to have both

[awk]

Whatever the answer is, it's not simply throwing money at it. For instance, one of the biggest concerns in British athletics is that young athletes have found it too easy to get financial support, and have not been 'hungry' enough for success. The result is that the more money that has been put into athletics, the less successful British athletes have become.

Having said that, another issue is the perennial problem in Britain of trying to be the best at everything - money and effort being spread too thin. The problem then is, which sport gets the money? Only put it into those with some success, and you fail to support those who might just have the potential to succeed (our one medal success at the Games very publicly only made it through the support of her village).

Personally, I feel that the real problem in British sport is that proportionally too much goes into to the top end. That's not to argue that the elite should receive any less (far from it!), but that there remains insufficient investment at grassroots to go with that elite money, and there's no point in pouring money into the top end if the bottom of the pyramid is unstable. The facilities available for local sportsmen and women in Scandinavia are vastly better than anything I've seen in Britain. Until the government really engages with this (and fully recognises that the most important aspect of the National Health should be prevention rather than belated cure), then this will remain a substantial stumbling block to progress. That to my mind will be the real measure of whether 2012 is successful - not how many medals are won, but whether it really is the trigger for widespread, long term viable sports development.

[Bilson]

Interesting fact I read today.
FK what the sources for these were, by the way, but I read it in the Guardian.

Governmental £££ (in whatever guise) spent on Athens 2004 team ~ £70m
Medals ~ 30
Price per medal ~ £2.3m

Governmental £££ (in whatever guise) spent on Torino 2006 team ~ £2.3m
Medals ~ 1
Price per medal ~ £2.3m

Dunno whether this fuels or dampens the debate, but it is quite interesting in itself. How much money/support does a talented but developing athlete need in order to go on to win an Olympic medal?

Obviously this is no where near scientific and there are many more variables which must come into this comparison, but, I wonder how much other nations spend per medal....

[Jon Brooke]

Probably already far too late for us (British) to achieve our "true potential" at the 2012 Olympics.

Our big problem is our entire culture. I think it is no coincidence that we eat more ready meals than anyone else in Europe, work longer hours than anyone else in Europe, have more satelite TV connections than anyone else in Europe and start putting our kids under more pressure to achieve academicaly at an earlier age than anyone else in Europe.

Unfortunately we are obsessed by work and frivolous consumer goods, have no idea how to enjoy ourtselves without external stimuli and don't appreciate nature or the feeling of physical wellbeing (present company excepted of course).

what could we do to improve things?

Spend more time with our kids (and/or other people's kids) doing sport and outdoorsy stuff.

[Jon Brooke]

Ah yes, forgot to include that one in my list.

Please add - have a more pathetic risk averse / not my problem / someone else will fix it attitude than anyone else in Europe

- thanks G

[guest]

I think one of the problems not mentioned thus far is not just the lack of suitable facilities in the UK, but the inability to access suitable training areas abroad. I know the GB luge/bob olympians were refused access to train on most other nation's ice tracks.

On a seperate note, was it just me that thought the biathlon (was brill to watch!) was a bit like orienteering? OK, perhaps not very but there were some similarities - e.g. pacing, the mental aspect with the shooting, accuracy etc.

[fell]

On a seperate note, was it just me that thought the biathlon (was brill to watch!) was a bit like orienteering? OK, perhaps not very but there were some similarities - e.g. pacing, the mental aspect with the shooting, accuracy etc.

check fellathlon?

So Australia finishes with 1 gold (moguls) and 1 bronze medal (aerials).
with definately worse training opportunities than GB.
does this show how much funding plays a part?

I'm not certain how much is received by the athletes (grant or Gareth do you know?), but I know the guy who won the moguls is a millionaire.

[awk]

On a seperate note, was it just me that thought the biathlon (was brill to watch!) was a bit like orienteering? OK, perhaps not very but there were some similarities - e.g. pacing, the mental aspect with the shooting, accuracy etc.

Definitely the best sport to watch on TV! Interesting you should say that - talking to various Norwegians in Geilo (including the father of the current Norwegian Biathlon under 14 champion), they told me that the orienteers turn to biathlon in the winter (or is it biathlon types turn to orienteering in the summer?).

Quite impressive skiing round Geilo one afternoon to suddenly be overtaken by a couple of 14 year old girls skating away with rifles on their backs. Not a sight you're likely to see in the UK, and maybe symptomatic of the difference in culture and attitudes.

[Mrs H.]

Spend more time with ... other people's kids doing ... outdoorsy stuff.

maybe before the sue-you sir culture began

But I have put out a challenging message to local families - "do you want your kids to turn out as a pile of computer mush - or do you want them to be capable, independent, fit and self-reliant individuals?" and guess what - they said "sod the risks - we want adventure" and they keep coming back to event after event. It was so cold and windy on Saturday I was sure no-one would come - but they came in droves. Record numbers on the orange (moving up through the system) and more new members.

There are large numbers out there who would heed what we're saying - if they only they got to hear the message.

[Jon Brooke]

Exactly. The problem isn't the kids. If they are given opportunities and someone takes charge and shows the way then they love to do sport and get outdoors. I don't think money is the problem either. We're just short of adults who can be bothered to give up their free time and get them organised.

In my case, I had some great scout and cub leaders who took us walking, climbing and kayaking, some school teachers who organised rugby matches for us on Saturday mornings and skiing trips in winter, a village fishing club that organised coaches to take us fishing at the weekends and a dad that used to dump me and my windsurfing kit at the beach until I could drive myself. By the time I got to adulthood I couldn't imagine not doing sports or getting outdoors at every opportunity.

[FatBoy]

There's undoubtely a problem with getting kids to do outdoor stuff, but from what I see in canoeing circles I think the peak of the non-competitve wrapped in cotton wool child is past, and efforts of the likes of Mrs H are bringing kids into sport more than 5 years ago.

There's also undoubtely a problem with this knee-jerk reaction government who rise to percieved public opinion on the spur of a moment. Of course ignoring public opnion is worse but a more long term approach to everything is better surely. Last thing I heard was that funding was to be cut to sports "who didn't have a chance of a medal". How do you know which sports give you a medal? How do you know which athletes are going to perform really. For example some junior superstar called Dids Jenkins hasn't filled his senior potential (yet). I'm sure he's more annoyed about that than anybody who sent funding his way but a case in point. Flip it round and you'll see that our only medalist of the games while receiving some funding had to buy her own sled (£3000 apparently) - shows that funding is not necessarily everything. For once the government should take on board the want of the public at large then get some proper experts in sport to tell them how to deliver it, then stick to it, rather than listening to how somebody ranting at their telly drinking beer is telling them to do it, then changing their mind in 6 months.

One thing I think needs sorting more than anything though is this concept of medals being the only thing. "Fourth is the worst place to finish" being said by commentators repeatedly. The men curlers really shouldn't have bothered winning all those qualifying matches then they would've finished last which is better than 4th apparently? If you're going to have that attitude you might as well go for "2nd is first loser". Good attitude to have as an athelete at the start but you've got to be at least midly contented with being 4th in a full international field.

[mikey]

I know the guy who won the moguls is a millionaire.

....and he's really Canadian.

[guest]

since we are on the subject of the olympics clearly half of the commentators didnt have a clue what they were on about.

An example was Paul Dickinson (normally an athletics commentator - and a not very good one at that) trying to talk about bobsleigh. And is it just me, but he uses the word 'useful' several dozen times - listen out next time you hear him commentate.

As someone once said "...now thats useful".

[DIDSCO]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/other_s ... 720674.stm

Point proven?