Junior badge courses (again!)

[awk]

JM/W5S has a length ratio of 0.32 in Scotland, and 0.39 in England, a 20% difference, or about 15mins.

Didn't realise there was this difference, and am not familiar with Scottish guidelines, but this does seem awfully short. Personally, I would still rather see definitions by distance (JM/W5S = 3.3k, JM5M/W5L = 5.5k, +/-20%), with shortening or lengthening depending on physical difficulty of terrain. Better than the planners having one mistake (getting M21 distance wrong) affecting the whole event. But that requires the planner/controller to think a bit more, and use experienced judgement.

[helen]

3.3km? i would say thats far too short for what is supposed to be the equivelent of W16A...

[bendover]

bring back proper names for courses.

how the hell are newcomers supposed to know what any of it means? or overseas competitors for that matter?

M/W10A and short
M/W11-12A and short
M/W13-14A and short
M/W15-16L and S
M/W17-18L and S
M/W19-20L and S

then maybe some open junior classes?
there must be an easier way than all this JW5M nonsense. correct me if I'm wrong but I haven't noticed any other nations getting bogged down in all this abbreviated jargon.

(prepares to be shot down in flames)

[awk]

3.3km? i would say thats far too short for what is supposed to be the equivelent of W16A...

Sorry, my mistake - that was the recommended median distance for JM/JW4. JM/JW5S is 4k, which is slightly below the average distance for W16A before the scheme came in.

[helen]

thats more like it, though in my opinion 4km is still slightly too short...

[awk]

how the hell are newcomers supposed to know what any of it means? or overseas competitors for that matter?

And how many overseas competitors at regional events are there? Research during the pilot showed that newcomers found this less difficult to understand than the age class structure, and less off-putting, as it clearly related to colour coding.

M/W10A and short
....
M/W19-20L and S
then maybe some open junior classes?

How many classes do you want Ben? 24 , plus your open classes? At regional events? I won't go into all the other reasons why this was changed - but there were a lot.

there must be an easier way than all this JW5M nonsense. correct me if I'm wrong but I haven't noticed any other nations getting bogged down in all this abbreviated jargon.

Like H or M12, M20E, W20M, U1 etc? Just different abbreviated jargon, that's all, and less of it under the JM/JW scheme.

[bendover]

see i knew i would be shot down in flames.

fair enough andy!

[Blanka]

Research during the pilot showed that newcomers found this less difficult to understand than the age class structure, and less off-putting, as it clearly related to colour coding.

Just out of interest, who did that research/what are the data?

How many classes do you want Ben? 24 , plus your open classes? At regional events? I won't go into all the other reasons why this was changed - but there were a lot.

I agree with awk that Ben's suggestion is a bit too many courses. But how about (sorry to steal your idea, Mrs. H, but I really like it) A classes as before and joint J classes replacing the B courses (for men and women together, basically colour codeds but not called colours because juniors don't want to be seen to be running lesser course) as a sort of ladder acting as the route to your apprpriate A class. They will act as your kind of open class, because any junior can do any of them - once they work their way to their A class they can start doing that.

So you end up with 6 men's A, 6 women's B and 6 J courses (probably J-TD1, JTD-2, J-TD3, J-TD4, J-TD5shorter, J-TD5longer). A few more than the current JM/W, but it will provide motivation to get to your appropriate level, but still allow you to be competitive as you're working towards it.

[bendover]

is it just regional events that juniors run technical difficulty courses as opposed to 'age group' classes?

i guess my point is that when i was a junior i wanted to run against people my age. i think it was a perceived fairness issue, at least up until the age of 16 or so. then you knew who your competition was and could measure your achievements accordingly.

okay so our sport is a bit different to others because of this 'technical difficulty' issue - but theres not many other sports where juniors are split up by anything apart from age - only really the martial arts i think, where it can be done by weight or grade - and at least in this situation its monitored. e.g a yellow belted kid in a graded competition couldn't fight a blue belted kid in a grading.

i don't think there's any enforcement of this style in orienteering is there? e.g you HAVE to get 3 yellow standards before you do an orange.. or 3 silver/gold standards before you can move up a technical level.

would this work? would it prevent newcomers to orienteering diving in too deep? just some thoughts.

p.s i'm only wondering... its not necessarily my opinion before anyone goes mental..

[awk]

Just out of interest, who did that research/what are the data?

I did - it was based on survey returns from a range of juniors at squad, club and school level from within the pilot area. About 80-90 returns. I have to admit, I don't have the original info now (this was some years and two jobs ago now), so I'm recalling from memory.

But how about (sorry to steal your idea, Mrs. H, but I really like it) A classes as before and joint J classes replacing the B courses ....
.

Given that most of the better juniors in an age class actually run beyond their designated A class, I can't see the point - the so-called A class would actually be a sort of B class. And it's not as if older runners on a course outclass the younger ones. There may be an argument for age classes when you're trying to find the best at a certain age (e.g. championships), but that's not regional events.

That was really highlighted this weekend, when the the top M14s made a complete nonsense of the TD4 course at Barns Cliff which they were expected to run for a selection race.

Anyway, enough on this from me - just going over old ground unproductively. All this thread was about was to highlight that some junior regional classes are shorter than they should be.

[Blanka]

Then you get into the question of what is a badge event for. If to provide a bridge between CC and National events, then the ageless classes must surely be a step backwards?

I keep being told that the JM/W are a great way of encouraging non-family orienteers and school orienteers, who haven't got parents who will drive them to an event every week. I may be missing the point, but surely Badge events weren't originally set up for these juniors - these juniors should be going to lots of Colour Coded events until they're at the level when they can run their class at a Badge event. Is the problem that some regions just have too many badge events and not enough CC/local events?

Don't get me wrong, I have gradually seen some of the plus points of the system, but I think the family orienteer is being cheated a bit.

Given that most of the better juniors in an age class actually run beyond their designated A class, I can't see the point - the so-called A class would actually be a sort of B class. And it's not as if older runners on a course outclass the younger ones. There may be an argument for age classes when you're trying to find the best at a certain age (e.g. championships), but that's not regional events.

Yes, but I would say that with age classes you have a greater chance of running against your peers (I expect most people who are 15/16 would run 16 whereas with JM/W's you have quite a large number of options, so you can't say as easily that you'll run against you friends/peers)?

That was really highlighted this weekend, when the the top M14s made a complete nonsense of the TD4 course at Barns Cliff which they were expected to run for a selection race.

But surely that's more the problem of under-planning (as you mentioned earlier) than the problem of the system?

One other issue is with too many different badge schemes. OK, the more experienced juniors don't care about them as much, but those non-family orienteers and school orienteers usually might do a bit more. Here's what I put in the suggestions for the Ageless review:

There are now too many badge schemes, which again creates confusion. For those who go for Championship badges at national events, it is OK, but for those who might only reach up to Gold or Silver at Naional events, the Badge events used to be a good way of filling up the remaining Golds/Silvers to make 3 in a particular age classes. This is now no longer possible because the JM/JW badges work differently.

[Becks]

Just to remind you all that Alex at BOF needs any comments you want to make about this system by the last day of this month. Get writing, or PM me and I'll pass them on.

[bolder]

Have I understood correctly Blanka that you're propossing changing B courses to a single joint course for boys and girls of the appropriate age?

I agree that B courses need somehow need to be changed or at least their image changed. At he moment not many people run them as they feel inferior for doing so, and want to compare themselves with friends anyway. But having a mixed course would be even worse. Imagine how a young lad would feel being beaten by a girl. Especially a beginner who pehaps doesn't apprecaite the
technical element so much. a 14 year old lad wouldn't tell his mates at school that his sister beat him in a race at the weekend.

Thats just my view. I know there's no easy answers.

[bendover]

on the other hand wouldn't it be great for the girl.

and we need more girls orienteering don't we.

[Blanka]

Have I understood correctly Blanka that you're propossing changing B courses to a single joint course for boys and girls of the appropriate age?

Effectively yes. From the other side, surely it would be a plus point to have a bit more competition?

But I'm not saying MW10B then MW12B then MW14B. I am saying TD1, TD2, TD3, etc., i.e. like a colour coded where you can run any course, and not be constrained by the age you are. In any case, although you can combine M10B and W10B, which is done in practive anyway, you can't do that with 18's, so you couldn't just say combine the B classes for each appropriate age.