JK day 4

[graeme]

There are issues beyond the format, which are fixable.
Day 4, Easter Monday, is not a public holiday here. Some years, its a regular school day.

Even for many English, the last day may involve a long journey home.

These things are particularly problematic for relays. If someone has to work and can't run an individual race it affects only them, but in a relay it makes it less attractive for their potential teammates too. Similarly, the best aspect of relays is the team spirit and socialising - but this is always dampened by the desire to rush off and get started on the long journey home.

The solution is to move the relay to Day 2 or 3. The middle race is ideal for day 4: its done and dusted quickly, groups travelling together can have similar start/finish times, and get on the way home, and anyone who can't make the Day-4 middle doesn't spoil the day for teammates.

It doesn't mean we shouldn't think about format. Relays are quite heavy on volunteer effort, so a parallel event sounds like a bad idea, But for people who don't like hanging about or being on a team, something like individual entry to leg 1 would involve no extra organiser-effort and, by increasing the size of the field, enhance the fun for everyone else.

But enough of this, I've got the Scottish Relays to plan

[Forest Gump]

There are issues beyond the format, which are fixable.
Day 4, Easter Monday, is not a public holiday here. Some years, its a regular school day.

Even for many English, the last day may involve a long journey home.

Yep we're not going to the JK at all as it's a very long way for only 3 days (inc. 1 sprint and 1 middle) but I always love relays...because of what Lard said. The wife should be working and the kids have to go back to school on the Tuesday after a 9+ hour journey home from south of London on Easter Monday (the flights were over £600). It's a good job I've got someone else to take my trophies back

[greywolf]

Day 4, Easter Monday, is not a public holiday here. Some years, its a regular school day.

and in some areas it's a school day this year http://www.moray.gov.uk/moray_standard/page_55829.html

[afterthought]

The solution is to move the relay to Day 2 or 3.

When I started orienteering, which was a long time ago, I think the relays were on Easter Sunday. Perhaps when the JK was setup we were still trying to learn from how orienteering was done in Scandinavia (only guessing based on the clue of the name?) Perhaps team events and encouragement from others in the club help participation from the younger seniors whose orienteering numbers are so in decline, although they make little difference to older runners?

Maybe there is a contributor here who can tell us the thinking behind moving the relays to the Monday all that time ago?

Setting up a rival event (an individual) alongside the relays doesn't seem an obvious answer to the described problem, let alone the extra work consideration.

In my view having more courses (e.g. the short courses, when the open classes are already short) suffers the same flaw of compromising the main classes, thus reducing the appeal of the day. TioMila and Jukola don't have short courses alongside the main show (except maybe the last leg.) I know we don't tend to try and learn from other sports, but the National Cross-Country doesn't offer short courses - everyone does the full course and they are generally thought one of the great occasions of the year (lengths are 8k for women, 12k for men.)

[Snail]

The National Cross Country Relays only offers short courses: 4 x 5K for senior men, and 3 x 3K for women. Not sure that would be too popular for the JK

Agree that for individual races we perhaps offer too many courses. But evidence suggests that not everyone wants long courses - there is nothing to stop everyone entering the Black/Brown course at any event. Would any club be brave enough to offer just a men-only Brown course and a women-only Blue course (plus perhaps White/Yellow/Orange) at their next event?

[Tatty]

Back in the Seventies Friday was a training day, Saturday the individual, Sunday the Relays and Monday a Cool Down race. Later the individual became a 2 day event and the relay was moved to Monday. YHOA introduced an invitation sprint Race (about 12 men and 12 women)in 2006, before it was introduced on the Friday for the masses in 2007.

[Scott]

The National Cross Country Relays only offers short courses: 4 x 5K for senior men, and 3 x 3K for women. Not sure that would be too popular for the JK

Last year's JK premier courses were 5.4km, 4.3km, 5.4km for men and 4.2km, 3.4km, 4.2km for women.

[afterthought]

he National Cross Country Relays only offers short courses: 4 x 5K for senior men, and 3 x 3K for women.

Thanks. I did not intend to comment on the relay lengths by mentioning the non-relay XC lengths.

Re the relays are they well attended? Which is where we came into this thread. Perhaps XC haven't thought of having at last four different courses based on age criteria. And letting men who don't fancy the full distance run with the women. Surely it would increase turnout?

[frog]

Too many relay classes (and when I organised the JK relays the Adhoc relay course was the most popular course which makes you realise how pointless the different classes are, especially as Adhoc winners often don't get prizes but pay the same entry fee) and I have to be back at work Tuesday. Also lots of hanging around on a day when you want to get home.

[mharky]

I'm pretty sure the JK Trophy is awarded to the winners of the Premier Relays.

Actually, I'm certain, as it's sitting in my room right now

[Kris]

Re the relays are they well attended? Which is where we came into this thread. Perhaps XC haven't thought of having at last four different courses based on age criteria. And letting men who don't fancy the full distance run with the women. Surely it would increase turnout?

This year there were 166 mens and 124 womens teams (of 4 and 3 respectively). The available categories were U13, U15, U17, Junior and Senior (as is the norm in XC) and there were 1178 teams entered across all of these categories.

[Tim]

Since the introduction of 2 individual days, 1981 has been the only Ind/Relay/Ind. For 1980 and since 1982 its been Ind/Ind/Relay.

1981 (like 2017) was a very late Easter (Sunday was the 19th April) so I guess the reason why Ind/Relay/Ind wasn't successful was that people struggled to do both individual days for all the practical reasons listed previously in the thread.

So the risk with moving the relay to the Sunday is that you weaken the whole event as people still won't be able to do the Monday and won't turn up at all, as they can't do both individual days. And they still might not do the relay, as they'll take the opportunity to have a rest before the 2nd individual race.

If you want to try and get people to do the relay by sticking it between days they do want to do what about Middle/Long/Relay/Sprint?

Late starts for the middle to allow for travel on Friday, get the important stuff out of the way, then the relay and finally a short sprint early on the Monday to allow people to get home.

Sorry this assumes we're going for a middle and long for the 2 individual days - something that I can't remember whether it's been agreed or not.

[Kris]

I wouldn't try to make people do the relay by putting in a different place in the program. I'd try to make people want to do the relay.

I think less courses and bigger start fields would go a long way to making the relays a more interesting spectacle for both runners and spectators. You could even combine men and women into one super relay, which with legs of 5k, 4k, 5k would be manageable by most.

[andypat]

I wouldn't try to make people do the relay by putting in a different place in the program. I'd try to make people want to do the relay.

Yes!

You could even combine men and women into one super relay, which with legs of 5k, 4k, 5k would be manageable by most.

No!!!!!!!

I'm thinking of the look on Graeme Ackland's face at the Scottish relays that year of the storms once it became clear that people were taking an awful lot longer than expected with the change in underfoot conditions.

What ever you do dont have people out for 60mins plous on the relays - it should be fast and furious which means you need shorter courses for "non-elite" club members.

[ifor]

I believe 1981 the relay was on the Sunday because the Scots did not have a bank holiday on the Monday. The relay is of course the JK trophy. The individual event is just the warm-up.

Personally I would be a lot happier with the relay earlier in the weekend as I struggle with the back to back days now and would prefer not to have to contemplate skipping a day in order to be still in reasonable shape for the relay. Middle, relay, long, sprint for me.