UK Sport and Coe

[harry]

Who's naive?
OK not everyone's at it.
Is it the same in athletics as in cycling, everyone's at it except the English?

Not quite an hour and luckily I have no interest in Eastenders.
If we take times from after the Biological Passport was brought in for athletics in 2009 it gets even further from the hour. Wow yeah, would be great if I could muster up some powerful emotion like jealousy over this, maybe that would motivate me to put some effort in another time!

I'm also not jealous that she lives in a tax haven, different values.

In June I was defending Paula to some Aussies, using some of the same arguments as you Did, and more. But I've since become much more skeptical and opened my mind to lots of new information. I now find it very difficult to believe that she was 100% clean for the whole of her career. For example it seems quite/very likely that she had a transfusion prior to World Half Marathon champs in Portugal. One thing that would help her case if 'innocent' is if she published all her blood values like Jo Pavey and others have done. I find it interesting that Jo Pavey is running slower times now than back in the day but having more stand out results and medals now post introduction of the biological passport.
Due to cover ups and control of the mass media it is difficult to know what to believe. Just make a choice, do you want to believe blindly in things you've always believed or do you want to look deeper into things, reflect and reevaluate based on new information. Most people are not comfortable with changing their worldview like this. It is easier to be fooled than to admit you've been fooled. Stay unconcious if you prefer. And attack anyone with a different opinion. That's part of human nature. When you are confronted with new truths / information you go through three stages with it: ridicule, strong opposition and finally (if you dare) acceptance. Not necessarily referring to doping now, just anything that you would have to shift your world view to accommodate.

I'm sorry you attacked Graeme and me in a personal way Dids. I think you're better than that and you must have been having a rough day. On the other hand creds for defending someone you met once, respect and still believe strongly in.

Doping has been demonized but does it make athletes bad people if they dope? Do you think Usain Bolt is just on yams & bananas? We're talking about significant competitive advantages in global big money sports. Not orienteering which is done by a few rich white middle class kids who can get a competitive advantage by finding ways to avoid getting a job! (And are therefore often living in a tax haven themselves in a way by opting out of society's demands and responsibilities).

Some thoughts. Relax I doubt anything else will come out or be admitted in this case so we can choose what we want to believe.

[awk]

:lol: Who's naive?
OK not everyone's at it.
Is it the same in athletics as in cycling, everyone's at it except the English?

Ah - so that'll explain G's brilliant performances then

[graeme]

I'm quite concerned by the IAAF's announcement that Radcliffe is "entirely innocent",

Maybe your concern is misplaced? Because actually, they said:
there are clearly plausible explanations for the values in her profile that are entirely innocent.
and that:
"the (media) allegations were a gross misinterpretation of raw data".

Which is rather different and, as far as I can tell, means...

not guilty

[DIDSCO]

Harry > mate I have a rough day everyday, I'm a full time dad with 3 little kids! Teletubbies this morning at 2am.........try watching those old episodes if you want to study the effects of drugs

Its not surprising I defend Paula there's no evidence she's doped and she's an old club mate. I don't think hiding out on the internet gives you the right to accuse somebody of doping without any concrete evidence. You say I took a dig at you and Graeme, big deal I would have no problem saying the same thing in person to you both, however would you have the ball's to say Paula's a drug cheat to her face?

[harry]

Well you have edited your post so I'm going to edit mine and defend my point of view here.....

If I had the chance then yes, I would say if you have evidence that shows you have not broken any rules then please show us the data and provide the context that you say exists and helps to explain these significant anomalies. Please do this instead of providing misinformation about when the blood was taken and exagerrating the temperature that day, 'immediately' after the race is not the same as 90 minutes after crossing the finish line of a 60-70 minute race when you've had time to jog and rehydrate as other elite runners tested at the same race have reported.

If she has doped/ blood doped I understand it and it doesn't take away from all the things she has done to get people more active and especially as an inspiration to women. I don't demonize athletes for doping at all, I think it's an unfortunate part of professional sport and I don't think a lot of people realize that. If we really want to 'clean up' sport and athletics in particular the attitude that someone is clearly 'nice' and hard working therefore wouldn't dope and above investigation is a very dangerous attitude to have because noone is saying these people are not nice or incredibly dedicated to what they do, noone is saying that at all, they are all those things. We're saying look at the state of athletics and get real. Look at the economic model there. Their job is to win that's why they get paid. If you had to take drugs to do your job and get paid would you? I'm not attacking any individual athlete I'm saying wake up and get real and see it for how it is. I'm well aware that this is not going to be a popular point of view and I won't make any apologies for that.

Call it hiding on the internet or call it discussing an issue that most people want to ignore and not talk about or pretend it doesn't happen because 'I met them and they were nice' and 'X is outspoken about anti-doping issues therefore she definitely wouldn't dope' COME ON!!! We have no idea really but there is definitely plenty of evidence suggesting a thorough investigation is warranted and it's been reported that when the Sunday Times suggested that it needed investigating she immediately threatened lawsuits. That could be just outrage at being wrongly accused but remember that for these 'off-scores' to be red flags they have already take into account things like altitude training and biological variations, as I understand it the thresholds are set conservatively to avoid false positives. I'm educated as a physiologist and I don't have a deep understanding of the stats but to me from everything I've read and the research I looked at about dehydration it looks pretty suspicious. She explains the one in Portugal was due to dehydration but there's no precedent for that level of dehydration being possible and she dominated the field.. whilst severely dehydrated??

As for your argument that I shouldn't question something without concrete evidence, well Paula has actually done that herself. When she publically shamed a Russian athlete with her trackside 'EPO cheats out' protest that athlete was in the process of being accused of doping. But nothing had been proved. No concrete evidence at that point. Just suspicion and a fast Russian. Apparently it's OK to put all the blame on Russia and hope people believe that the problem is solved though. That seems to be Seb Coe's strategy.

[DIDSCO]

Olga Yegorova tested positive for EPO before Paula made the protest, so you're wrong about that.

I've never said Paula is nice person, though she is, and wouldn't base my opinion on that. The baddest boy in athletics history, and olympic gold medallist, I've shown the sights of Gothenburg to, he was a nice guy ( but will remain nameless as he's not officially been caught doping -no concrete evidence )

I'd be pretty angry if I'd never doped and a newspaper said it was going to print a story suggesting I was, wouldn't you?

Anyway nowadays I'm more interested in figure skating, a tough highly technical sport, where only two athletes have ever tested positive.

[andypat]

I'd be pretty angry if I'd never doped...

Do we need to go there...?

[Mrs H]

I wonder if Paula has a brandwatch As far as I know this is a public forum isn't it?

[Kitch]

Harry, I think you have one thing wrong.
You should demonise athletes for doping.
Dopers rob clean athletes of their dreams
Dopers perpetuate the problem
Dopers risk their long term health and life and, more importantly, through perpetuation, do the same to others.

[DIDSCO]

Kitch > in theory I agree with your point, and its a point very easy to make having been brought up in a middle class family with all the opportunities in the world. I would have agreed with you until I started being involved with various African runners. When you drop a Kenyan runner off at the airport, and they're in tears as they only have a few thousand dollars to take back to the village where they live in mud huts with small children dying week in, week out,then its maybe not surprising these runners will do whatever they can to win, and more importantly win the cash. Can we demonise the poor African runner who runs as its there only chance in life and to provide for a whole village, as much as middle class western European runner with all the opportunities and advantages in modern life. Its a tricky one.

[mharky]

It's an interesting one morally. It seems that doping is considered so much worse than other forms of cheating. In some sports breaking the rules to gain an unfair advantage are institutionalised. Look at football. I guess it's very easy to see the direct relationship between doping and results in racing based sports where physical attributes are most influential. Team sports don't seem to care about doping much, and I guess it's because it has less of an effect on the result. The thing about doping is, it's just a line in the sand re-drawn by WADA each year. Anything beyond this line makes you daemon, and if you're not doing everything below the line then you're stupid. The line changes. For the majority of Seb Coe's career it was prefectly legal to do blood doping (i.e. transfusions), this wasn't prohibited until 1986. The moral argument is just bollocks. To say it's because of health is BS, there are plenty of legal drugs you can take that are not good for you. It's not because drugs are bad, because it's only certain drugs (and methods) that are banned, and they keep changing it. It's not because it gives the richer nations an unfair advantage, because that exists with or without drugs, and judging by the documentary on Allan Wells, it's not that expensive to get EPO, micro-dose, and pass a drugs test (I do have massive suspicions about this documentary though). Distance races are still full of Africans, so money can't be an issue.

Question, why are drugs banned?

[Mrs H]

Yes - there is an argument that the only way you can level the playing field is to legalise everything - I wonder how that would pan out? A lot of dead athletes I suppose.

[andypat]

Yes - there is an argument that the only way you can level the playing field is to legalise everything - I wonder how that would pan out? A lot of dead athletes I suppose.

No, no, no, no, no!
It doesn't even really level the playing field if you think hard enough about it.
And it would be the death kneel for athletics as we know it.
My kids wouldn't be allowed to do it. I wouldn't watch it. Money would eventually drain away...or you would end up with a sort of "Gladiators" style beef fest.

[Mrs H]

well I wasn't suggesting it was a good idea! But there could be a third outcome a sort of return to a two tier system like the old-school amateur and professional sportsman idea.

[DIDSCO]

Well there is a solution that would get rid of a significant amount of doping in sport.
Make all sports where you gain a significant advantage through doping completely amateur again. No prize money, no appearance fees, no kit sponsor, a cheap medal thats it. At the same time the athlete no longer competes for their country, at the race they simply compete as themselves with no country, no club, no sponsor ties - state funded doping then becomes worthless.