Permanent Orienteering maps

[Big Jon]

The issue seems to be more what the OS will allow than what clubs want to do. I still don't understand how the OS can claim copyright on a map that isn't made using their material, for example one based on Google Earth and/or Openstreetmap. As the algorithm for converting lat and long to a grid reference is public, I don't see how they can claim that including a grid reference infringes their copyright either, unless they can prove that it was generated using their material. Aren't we innocent until proven guilty?

If those restrictions still apply, wouldn't one solution be for BOF to host all the maps (and pay a single fee like Routegadget does), and the for clubs to link to them from their own pages? That would also enable BOF to keep track of the numbers downloaded if it wanted.

The OS can try to claim copyright on what they like, but it only actually is legally binding if you use their material for the mapping. Maps made from pg plots (for example) are not OS copyright.

[graeme]

Aren't we innocent until proven guilty?

Nope. If you're guilty you're guilty. You're confusing it with Presumed innocent according to law

We can go on being presumed innocent while being banged up on remand and dragged off to court, but even if we eventually go from "presumed innocent" to "not proven guilty", none of us can afford the time and cost involved.

The idea that the OS will sue us for lidar or PG plot maps is absurd. But at the moment most ISSOM maps are obviously sourced from OS. Many dont even bother to delete the non-existent sheds the OS use as copyright traps. So its probably not a good time to provoke them.

[Big Jon]

Aren't we innocent until proven guilty?

Nope. If you're guilty you're guilty. You're confusing it with Presumed innocent according to law

We can go on being presumed innocent while being banged up on remand and dragged off to court, but even if we eventually go from "presumed innocent" to "not proven guilty", none of us can afford the time and cost involved.

The idea that the OS will sue us for lidar or PG plot maps is absurd. But at the moment most ISSOM maps are obviously sourced from OS. Many dont even bother to delete the non-existent sheds the OS use as copyright traps. So its probably not a good time to provoke them.

The OS did try to claim copyright over pg plot based maps - for the use of 6 or 8sets of coordinates to position the photographs in the plotter. This was eventually thrown out. They then tried to claim copyright over the National grid - but Gordon Petrie had sorted this decades ago and eventually the OS backed down on this too. So you can use a few pieces of information from an OS map and the National Grid for free without any need for recognition of this material. I agree, however, that ISSOM maps are running the risk of major hassles from the OS (I have bought the data from licensed OS dealers, often bookshops) to avoid this problem - I don't want my business screwed up by illegal data.

[Paul Frost]

But it's the issue of displaying an image of the map on a website, and it being available to download that needs clarifying in the light of the recent OS OpenData initiative.

[graeme]

Paul: There's not going to be any case law on this, so Jon just gave you the clearest answer you can hope for. Both sides will try to interpret things in their advantage. If it's daft (like Jon's examples) they won't ultimately go to court to test the law. If it's serious, and in particular if the other side are making serious money with a competing product
(like the AA plagiarism I cited) then they will.

[Sloop]

Orienteering clubs need to adapt to the new digital age, just as the film & music industry have learnt, it's almost impossible to protect copyrighted stuff being copied and distributed, we need to let go of the thought that we must protect our maps from being copied, all we are doing is making it hard for Joe Public to get a map and try our sport.

(irrespective of any copyright issues, on which we did take advice ...)

So it is blindingly obvious that we must make all our POC maps freely downloadable, else we are derelict in our duty of evangelising for the sport. Question is ... who should pay ?

From our experience, very few club orienteers have the slightest interest in POCs. Keeping a POC alive costs money ... replacement posts, map updates, expenses for people who check them, leaflets. The implication of the blindingly obvious is that the club orienteers (who don't actually give two hoots) should pay for the POC upkeep so that the POC users don't. Funds for orienteering clubs seem to come entirely from event entry fees.

Given the vitriol on this forum about entry fees in general, does this really make sense? How much extra per event would be reasonable to add in as POC support ?

[SeanC]

My own experience of POC's are:

- The main initial/installation costs are often paid for by landowners, typically local councils, or a grant of some sort.
- POC's are often in areas where clubs update maps for local events in any case, though the version available at the country park visitor centre can be much older than the one's at events.
- The vitriol about event fees on Nopesport isn't typical of orienteers I know personally.
- Many clubs have plenty of spare money in reserves, and are looking for development opportunities.
- POC's are an important stepping stone for some peoples orienteering development. Some keen new orienteers want practice, rather than having to wait X weeks for the next event. Juniors moving on from yellow and orange particularly benefit from them from safe non competitive practice.
- Clubs underuse them, especially their potential for informal evening events/activities.
- Some clubs may have too many. 2 well maintained POC's are better than half a dozen that are in poor condition.
- Some schools really like them, they can turn up when it's practical with them.

Downloading is definitely the way to go, the one issue I have with it is that there needs to be a way of finding out who's using it for what. In the days when you had to send a stamped addressed envelope to a club member, there was one person in the club who knew this.

[mharky]

You can make people register for the download...

[Paul Frost]

So it is blindingly obvious that we must make all our POC maps freely downloadable, else we are derelict in our duty of evangelising for the sport. Question is ... who should pay ?

My view is that the cost in money and volunteer time to collect money for POC's is greater than the income. The initial setup cost is often not funded by the club. There may be a few clubs with a very active POC portfolio that gets a lot of use and does generate a profit, but they are probably in the minority.

It's not necessarily evangelizing the sport, but it is advertising it, so it's worth some investment from the club. Make sure that there is an obvious poster with a image of the map and details of how to download it (website link, QR code etc.).

Clubs could also make more use of them for training sessions, particularly in winter when daylight is short, so can save the time putting out and collecting controls. You could have a club leaderboard of fastest times, a virtual event on RouteGadget,

So they don't need to be a big drain on resources.

[Sloop]

Paul, I'm not sure your assumptions apply in Greater Manchester.
60 POCs spread between SELOC and MDOC.
Approx 2-3000 maps printed and sold pa.
Approx 0 new members generated pa.
So, I don't see any evidence that the POC market is where club investment is best aimed.

So, the business model of give-away-everything-POC-and-charge-it-to-the-clubs doesn't seem quite as appropriate as our 25-year-old business model of POC-stuff-covers-its-costs. Maybe we've been wrong all this time.

Interestingly, we will very shortly be going live with virtual POC orienteering along the lines of yours. We will only be putting up maps that are geo-referenced, though, as I don't think having to mess round with your track is going to appeal to people who are used to Strava, MapMyRun, etc. However, I see you have had 3 runners (one of which is you) in a whole year, if the 2013-11-12 date is when it was put up.

[Paul Frost]

Manchester was in my head when I wrote that there were some exceptions, as I knew it was another league altogether when it comes to POC's. I suspect most clubs have a handful of POC's and limited use of them.

I'm not sure how you can accurately measure the 0 new members due to POC's though.

[iainwp]

i started orienteering with my daughter on a POC (i'd done some events 30 years previously in a school club). LEI collected my email address as I downloaded, so I was later (6 months!) invited to a club night for newcomers. the rest, as they say, is history. I've now been on the start team at the british sprints and the JK, organised two events and have 3 on my list to do this year. so it worked for my club and me.

[Sloop]

I'm not sure how you can accurately measure the 0 new members due to POC's though

I did say "Approx". However, I take all the map orders and in 6 years I don't believe there have been any new members that have ordered POC maps before becoming members.

I'd say it is self-evident that POCs are a significant community service ... much used by schools, Scouts and Guides, OTC's, enthusiastic rangers, outdoor centres, etc ... but with extremely limited cross-over into club event-based orienteering. Hence the principle set by the founders of our organisation to keep them fairly independent.

[SeanC]

Wow 60 courses! I can see why you want them to generate some income with that kind of number.

One option might be to offer the permanent course maps free to download for club members if the club website has a members area?

I know of someone who's first taste of orienteering was a POC who later went on to make a major contribution to development in his club, plus the rest of his family are now regular orienteers.

[Sunlit Forres]

That's exactly what's happening in Moray, Sean http://www.moravianorienteering.org/content/homepage Day 1 today so we'll see how it goes (and whether the club gets any new members as a result).