DQ'd at a road crossing

[pete.owens]

I once competed at an event where imediately following a timed out crossing my chosen route involved re-crossing the same road. In that case failure to cross the road in the first place would definately have given me an advantage.

You'd have to explain that a bit more. You would still have had to go to the x-ing point to punch at least one of the controls and you'd have lost the time exclusion if you hadn't have punched both. How could it be advantageous not to cross and punch both?

I had the time exclusion for the first crossing - but I had to cross back in race time. Had I simply not bothered to cross the road at all (assuming a nice controller would have reinstated me) I would have gained an advantage.

Or to see the exact circumstances, look at my route from 8-9 on course B:
http://www.dee.routegadget.co.uk/rg2/#98

[blindasabat]

Clearly a case of bad planning!

[andypat]

Scenario.
I see my 1 minute man and great rival just about to punch the control after the road having taken 1 minute to cross. I punch the first control but dont stop to punch the second control in order to latch onto my rival and follow him into the finish.... who wins?

[graeme]

My principle for reinstating under good fellowship...

There was no intention to gain time, and no time was in fact gained.

... doesn't apply, so you're axed. Despite the comedy value of imagining you latching on and hanging on.

[Arnold]

I guess the problem is ultimately the slippery slope it sends you on.

Yes there probably wasn't any advantage gained by not punching the second control (indeed a disadvantage as no road crossing split would be removed).

However if you reinstate in this case, then what about runners not punching other controls like the last control (if at the beginning of finish funnel), map exchanges, drinks controls etc. - it would never end.

So while being "lenient" would indeed be nice, it would create more headaches later on. Unless there was something inherently unfair about the course / control location / description etc then you have to punch all the controls on your course and that's it...

[canol]

At a recent urban event with a compulsory crossing and two controls for this on each side of the road, I crossed the road and punched, thought I had forgotten to punch before crossing also, so recrossed the road to punch in the correct order the before control, then had to punch the after crossing again... clear so far. When I came to download I had in fact not made an actual error and had crossed the same road twice punching correctly both times. As time was removed for crossing the road I did wonder in hindsight could both my crossings have been deleted?

[andypat]

Graeme - think 180minuteman and you have the picture!

Canol - probably not because once youve punched the two controls in order you are then onto the next control - the fact you punched two additional controls (and got an extra rest) isnt anyone elses fault but yours.

[Marian]

When Mr Bat said he was going to post this on Nopesport, I (correctly) predicted that someone would say "slippery slope", someone "you need a faster card" and "yes, but what if x, y, z happened - that would be unfair". You've collectively let me down by failing to point out that re-instating several runners on a course without deducting time for their road crossing will inflate the rankings points for those who managed to hear both beeps.

Mrs Bat

[andypat]

Yeah but who said we were finished yet?

[graeme]

And she is right you know...

[Mr D]

We had a timed crossing in the MDOC Twin Peak event.

It was tied in with the turning the map over, and worked really well. They gave you a maximum time, and you had that time to find yourself on the map, and plan your route.

[blindasabat]

re-instating several runners on a course without deducting time for their road crossing will inflate the rankings points for those who managed to hear both beeps.

Er.. the rankings system should have no bearing on the rules of orienteering - Marian is being mischievous by including this reference. Every time I cock up a control, which I do several times an event, I skew the ranking points.

This issue here is should someone be disqualified for failing to record a punch at one of the two controls at a road crossing or just suffer the time-penalty of not having an excludable split?

[andy]

Er.. the rankings system should have no bearing on the rules of orienteering

In the same way you're trying to argue that missing a mandatory control out, thus breaking the rules of a legitimate run, should bend the rules and let you stand?

It's a control, it's on your course, you need to go there. Timed out or not, if you didn't go there (and can't prove otherwise) then you get a DQ.

[blindasabat]

In the same way you're trying to argue that missing a mandatory control out, thus breaking the rules of a legitimate run, should bend the rules and let you stand?
It's a control, it's on your course, you need to go there. Timed out or not, if you didn't go there (and can't prove otherwise) then you get a DQ.

Andy, this is a philosophical discussion, I'm not trying to get reinstated. And I'm not trying to argue that one should be able to miss out a mandatory control.

From my original posting you will see that I proposed that navigable controls provide proof of passage through the course - obviously these cannot be missed out. However, only one of the two controls either side of a road crossing serves this purpose, the other is there to remove an allowable amount of time to cross the road. Thus missing out one of these is self-evidently not comparable to missing out a single navigable control.

[andy]

However, only one of the two controls either side of a road crossing serves this purpose, the other is there to remove an allowable amount of time to cross the road.

The key is that it isn't always there in order to remove time, most of the time it is there to ensure competitors cross safety.

The best 'road' crossing (ok ok, rail) I have seen was at a 6-days on Loch Vaa, 2007 I think. You punched your control as normal and if you had to wait at all you then punched an extra (hand held) control which was then used to remove the time between the two. Perhaps manned crossings in urban events could use this model?