Allowing running down in the Compass Sport Cup/Trophy?

[SeanC]

Asking a relative newcomer to run up a class at the compass sport cup/trophy can be a very positive experience, I agree. But it depends on the individual. It could be a lot of pressure for others. We've got two in such a position in the SEOA heat. As we've got only 13 scorers (out of the required 13). I hope they aren't upset if they mispunch or retire on their more difficult than normal course.

If people were allowed to run down, but they couldn't score more points than those running their correct course, then it's a win for everyone. There would still be an incentive for club captains to persuade newcomers ready for their age class course to step up. But newcomers who aren't ready or just wont run the longer course would still be encouraged to go.

Looking at our entries for the SEOA heat, we have 3 runners running down non-competitively. They're all in families/couples where someone else is competing in their correct age class. We got lucky this year, with 3 last minute entries (two from the newbies) and 3 running up, we have just enough to make a team, but in other years we just don't (2 out of last 3) and the event is less of an event/development boost for our club than it once was.

Clubs are very different and maybe we should try to avoid extrapolating our own clubs circumstances onto others? In particular life in small trophy clubs can be very different to the big cup clubs, and many trophy clubs really need the yearly boost to club spirit that the trophy brings. For trophy clubs in particular we need to let as many of them at least make a team, many of them are on the edge of survival.

Since we have two competitions, it may be sensible to bring in rule changes specifically with trophy clubs in mind, eg allowing running down and/or changing the max counters rule just on the trophy competition.

[sketchweppers]

Since we have two competitions, it may be sensible to bring in rule changes specifically with trophy clubs in mind, eg allowing running down and/or changing the max counters rule just on the trophy competition.

That is just too complicated.

Some (smaller) cup clubs will also struggle to make up a full team. And the larger trophy clubs often bring more competitors to a Compass Sport event than some of the cup clubs. Unfortunately there has to be a cut-off somewhere - and it will depend on how you define 'a large club' and 'a small club'.

I certainly don't think you can allow both 'running down' and removing 'max counters'; you could end up with a load of younger men monopolising the short green course so the older competitors don't get a look in.

Whatever rules exist, they will not suit all of the clubs all of the time.

[andypat]

Since we've more or less agreed that the B classes at the BOC should be scrapped, isnt it time to do the same with the token small club trophy at the Compassport CUP?

[madmike]

Since we've more or less agreed that the B classes at the BOC should be scrapped, isnt it time to do the same with the token small club trophy at the Compassport CUP?

Definitely Less Agreed and no

[mykind]

We've just revised the rules for this year and already people want to change them again (before they've been used once!). Running down is a great idea but only if Sean C is willing to sort out all the results on the day other wise he can go sing - it's complicated enough as it is!
Why not abolish the CST well why not amalgamate all the small clubs with their nearest big club? Just get rid of all small clubs - go boil your head.

Mike Hind
Claro

[graeme]

However a trophy club with 13 M21's would still be at a slight disadvantage - such a club's maximum score would be 1222,

Not "slight". Even with every single person having a perfect run, 1222 is never enough to win.

all small clubs - go boil your head.

"Be allowed to form neighbouring alliances" might be a better way to put it. Edinburgh (INT/ESOC/EUOC) vs Sheffield (SYO/ShUOC) anyone? And yes, I know FVO would still win

[The Loofa]

We're beginning to get onto territory we've been over before. Not quite abolishing the CST but moving to a league system with promotion and relegation (and see if FVO can hold a place in the top division). The higher the division the more people to score.

[awk]

I like to run run down as a M35. And because I would not score for the club I don't take part. It's one of many none inclusive events in the orienteering fixture List.

Whilst I think the rules could be improved to make the CSC/T more inclusive (like adopting Graeme's suggestion), I have to challenge this. How many other sports base their national inter-club competition on a range of age classes that enables juniors through to the over-65s to compete for their club and count as much as the M/W21s? Most orienteering events are highly inclusive. The could be made more so, but to state that they are non-inclusive is, to my mind, highly suspect. (Actually, I think it's plain wrong).

[SeanC]

Just to clarify, partly based on responses here I'm suggesting a system where people running down a class or two can score no more points than the lowest amount of points scored by someone running their age class. You might still be thinking what is the point of that... and it is:

- gets more clubs a full team
- gives an important message to those not ready to do their age class.. "your welcome". We can always be more welcoming.

[SeanC]

To slightly change the point, discussions in the pub after KNC tonight it seems there are a couple of other ways to get more people and more newbies to the Compass Sport Cup/Trophy.

1) Allow limited entry on the day, maybe clubs could be given an allocation of 1 or 2 spare slots per class? (is this already possible?). There are people who don't know till just before the event whether they can go (due to work/family stuff etc). This would particularly help newcomers. I was talking to 3 in the pub tonight, started Kent Night Cups a few weeks ago, doing really well but not really aware of day orienteering as yet. I think they might be up for the SEOA event, but the closing date has gone. Alan Brett ... if you're still reading this there's an opportunity to squeeze a few more entries....

2) Don't hold the event at half term. Saxons have done so well with junior development over the past few years, but not one is going. Half term was a reason they mentioned.

[roadrunner]

My running club takes part in a cross-country league - not so many categories as the CSC and everyone running the same distance, but a similar scoring system. There are many members who haven't got a hope of scoring for the club's team (I count myself amongst them, as would nearly all the older club members). So how do we encourage the slower or less experienced runners to take part?

1. We remind them that, even though they may not score for us, they could help reduce another club's score by finishing ahead of their slowest scoring runner.

2. We make it a social event, with food provided by the host club's members for all competitors after the race (free of charge).

3. It's cheap!! (£2)

This is very successful: we typically get 60 runners taking part, of whom only 9 will score. Maybe some of these ideas could copy across to the CSC, without any need for a rules change?

[graeme]

This is very successful: we typically get 60 runners taking part, of whom only 9 will score.

But the equivalent commitment to travelling CSC would be the English National XC. Will your 60 people do that? Or are they actually just going to the nearest convenient event?

[alanbrett]

2) Don't hold the event at half term. Saxons have done so well with junior development over the past few years, but not one is going. Half term was a reason they mentioned.

Yes - I think turnout for virtually every club, our own included, has suffered for reasons of half-term holidays. I understand the qualifying round is moving to March next year which might be better.

[SeanC]

That's good news. So long as it's not mother's day.....

[Red Adder]

For significant parts of the south access to areas may be banned from end of February due to nesting birds...

again something not fully thought through