Late starters at major events

[awk]

The competitor could still be made to stand around waiting for a long time before they are allowed to start, which doesn't seem particularly fair..

There is no universally 'fair' solution, because the only 'fair' solution was them starting at the right time: somebody is going to have something 'unfair' happen to them. By doing it any other way though, you're then unfair to more than one person. Least damage.

I personally would stick with the system, that you take the next available start slot, and if it's an organiser error your time will then start from that time (OK, so you might have to wait), and if not, the clock is running. It's rough, and sometimes the reason one is late is completely out of one's hands, but just have to roll with it. Hopefully the organisers will build in enough late start slots (not always feasible). At least one can start late: some sports the race is done and dusted if you turn up after the start time!

[Snail]

In my experience, at most pre-entry events there is around a 10% no-show rate, so in practice there will probably be a number of free start slots, even if not immediately apparent from the start list. If the start team is really organised this can work. But you then have to decide what to do with the people who turn up just a minute or two late and find someone lese has been dropped in to their start slot.

A potential issue with knowing in advance that half-minute starts will be used is that people may be able to take advantage of it. If you have a good chance of blaming a delay on the organiser, then you may be able to arrange to start half a minute before or after a particular rival competitor. That doesn't arise if you have to wait for blanks / no shows.

[HarryO]

Out of interest - what happened to the Day 1 runners who were late because of the M4 delay? Were their late start times adjusted? Was a traffic incident deemed a good reason for being late?
We were also caught in the M4 queue, but as we knew it was a timed start we planned in an hour's contingency just in case traffic was bad (it being the first day of the Easter weekend )

[LukeM]

I was the organiser. I made my decisions on late start time adjustments on the basis of the protests submitted to me. There is nothing to suggest that your question can be answered generally, ie. each one was considered in its own merit, and it's not for me to post each individual outcome.

However, it may be helpful to the general discussion to point out the rule for IOF events (with my emphasis and brackets):

22.9 Competitors who are late for their start time through their own fault shall be
permitted to start. The organiser (and I would back up and recommend what Roger did; I was only aware of such a problem when the protests came in) will determine at which time they may start, considering the possible influence on other competitors. They shall be timed as if they had started at their original start time.

[SteveE]

All competitors were aware of the timed start and should have made appropriate travel arrangements to get there (JK Sprints) on time - the vast majority of us were able to do so.

We all have to get to the event, so if you think a M/way could have congestion near the event and you can't leave between exits, then take another route where a detour is possible over minor roads and alternate routes. Perhaps the route choice options for the competitors start during the journey, not just the start lane!

It's fair for everyone to know their time; take responsibility to get their on time and if not be prepared to take the consequences and wait their turn, regardless of how long that may be. If events have a mass start, do we expect to get people waiting until they all arrive, no - its hard luck and they will know better next time.

[SJC]

We all have to get to the event, so if you think a M/way could have congestion near the event and you can't leave between exits, then take another route where a detour is possible over minor roads and alternate routes.

With this approach you would have to avoid every motorway in the country. Predicting motorway closures due to an accident (rather than just heavy traffic) is impossible, and once you are in a queue of stationary vehicles there is no way out. I would like to think that event organisers give enough consideration to the time and money people spend getting to major events to make allowances for such an occurrence.

[SteveE]

With this approach you would have to avoid every motorway in the country. Predicting motorway closures due to an accident (rather than just heavy traffic) is impossible, and once you are in a queue of stationary vehicles there is no way out.

There were atleast half a doz advisory signs on the M1/M25 advising of delays between Jcn 10/11 of the M4 on the way to JK Sprint. Plenty of time to come off early and re-route.

If you're at the JK for the whole weekend, what's the matter with leaving a hour or two earlier than normal.

[lakesorunner]

Whilst I wasn't at the JK - so can't comment on this particular race...
My solution...
If it is a timed start - then that is your start time. If you are late (for whatever reason), then you should go on the next available slot, BUT you still punch a Late Start box, which will record your actual start time. If you feel the need to submit a protest once you have finished - go ahead. If your protest is successful, your time can be amended to use the actual start time as recorded in the Start box - if not, your time runs from when you should have started.
It may not be a perfect solution, but I can't think of one which is. It's the same for everyone - if 90-95% of runners can get there on time, it cannot be fair to allow a small minority the 'luxury' of being able to have a lie in/eat later/recover from the drive/whatever and then just turn up and run when they want.
fwiw - I would think it reasonable to assume that everyone who travels to the JK on Good Friday should expect delays on the motorway system (and other major routes) - it's not rocket science! The papers/radio/tv all say it's going to be busy - it is every single year - just live with it and either travel the day before, or set off EARLY.

[Clive Coles]

I find many of these comments disappointing though predictable.

Most people who attend major events never aspire to acquire top podium places. They turn up because they like to travel to the big events and run on the same courses as some of our top orienteers. But.... It's all become so "serious".

When you are driving to an event, delays due to RTA's cannot be predicted. You may get sufficient warning so as to be able to detour ~ you may just get stuck in the jam unable to move.

If such things happen it is certainly not the fault of the organiser. it seems though the rules only allow start time to be adjusted if a late arrival is caused by a fault in the organisation. So delays caused by RTA's are deemed to be your own fault.

So once you finally make it through to the event you immediately find you cannot be "competitive". You can probably have a run but for those for whom ranking points are important you score may not be worth having.

Thanks a bunch ~ glad I came. Was it really worth the cost and time of travel ?

I don't mind being slotted in to a spare time slot at the discretion of the starting officials.I just think it is being too heavy handed to expect all late starters to apply for their start time to be adjusted.

Let's try to make our sport more participant friendly. We have the technology to support a punching start ~ why no use it.

[Roger]

...it cannot be fair to allow a small minority the 'luxury' of being able to have a lie in/eat later/recover from the drive/whatever and then just turn up and run when they want.

Nobody's suggesting that: until a complaint is accepted by the organiser (or a subsequent protest is accepted by the jury) the clock is running for all late starters.

As the start official, do you wait for a gap, taking due account of the seeding rules (and spending time with the paperwork trying to sort out who can start in which gap)? Do you wait for a gap but not try to implement the seeding rules? Do you try to wait for a gap, and if none are appearing then consider starting people on the half-minutes? Or do you allow people to start on the half-minutes straight away?

And should the current rules be amended / clarified?

Come on, come on, the clock is running!

[The Loofa]

Too right Roger, the clock is running with less than 4 weeks to go to the British, where I'm organising and was wondering what to do about late arrivals at the start

I want to play it by the book.
If you are late at the start you have to wait for an appropriate space
and that means even if you arrive a minute after call-up you will still have to wait if we have slotted someone else in that time (if not you might be fortunate).
However I want to be lenient on later allowances. You do a punching start, and then we adjust to real running time later. You're already disadvantaged by being stressed to get there, and then having an indeterminate wait for a slot.

One thing that puzzles me. If late starters aren't adjusted to running time and the results go through to ranking lists etc, isn't everyone who arrived on time benefitting from extra ranking points due to apparent poor runs from some people.

[greywolf]

If late starters aren't adjusted to running time and the results go through to ranking lists etc, isn't everyone who arrived on time benefitting from extra ranking points due to apparent poor runs from some people.

Yes, although the effect of one individual would be pretty small in a typical JK field of >100

[Clive Coles]

But the memory for the individual concerned can have a lasting effect. To be started 25 minutes late so as to satisfy seeding requirements is fine at the top competitions but where races are planned to be won in under the hour to have those 25 minutes added to your actual time negates the whole point of turning up to the race.

It happened to me once ~ never again. I avoid start list major events where they are out of area and therefore involve a long drive ~ such major events are no longer on my radar.

We shouldn't need to adjudicate to allocate blame ~ I bet there are more people who are delayed by traffic than there are those who would delay their start just so that they could gain an advantage by taking an extra two minutes to recover from their jog to the start.

We want to encourage newer club members to step up to enter the level 2 and level 1 challenges. if we don't these events will have fewer and fewer participants. It's pretty unusual for an ordinary club member to be able to compete at a national championship ( that's a real plus point for orienteering) so don't let the application of rules discourage such participants. These newer members are unlikely to win a podium place but they will get a great buzz from seeing their names and actual times listed. They may well come again and get hooked on the chance to become more competitive.

I remember events such as the JK as being promoted as a "festival of orienteering". We need to retain the festival ethos and not allow concerns over tactical delays by a few to dictate the rules.

[Mrs H]

But the memory for the individual concerned can have a lasting effect. To be started 25 minutes late so as to satisfy seeding requirements is fine at the top competitions but where races are planned to be won in under the hour to have those 25 minutes added to your actual time negates the whole point of turning up to the race.

It happened to me once ~ never again. I avoid start list major events where they are out of area and therefore involve a long drive ~ such major events are no longer on my radar.

I think if you are that serious about the result of the competition then you need to take your travel arrangements just as seriously and not expect the organisers to take responsibility for them - even to the point of travelling the day before if necessary.

You are giving out mixed messages here clive - first of all you say let's not take it so seriously and then you say the result's not worth it if you don't get a competitive time.

[SteveE]

But the memory for the individual concerned can have a lasting effect. To be started 25 minutes late so as to satisfy seeding requirements is fine at the top competitions but where races are planned to be won in under the hour to have those 25 minutes added to your actual time negates the whole point of turning up to the race.

If the event is important to you then make the effort to allow plenty of time to get there and prepare yourself, so you are relaxed at the start and not stressed by rushing.

I remember events such as the JK as being promoted as a "festival of orienteering". We need to retain the festival ethos and not allow concerns over tactical delays by a few to dictate the rules.

If this is the case, then have a punching start at all for courses which have a recreational element for those taking part. Make all courses a punching start except those like the elite courses or JK trophy courses or which have WRE status. At other Level A events the M/W (E or A) courses for Championship status should be timed, but make the M/W (B) courses punching.

Mrs H beat me to the first reply point.