Colour Coded Course Lengths

[AndyC]

I don't know the area , the event or the planner BUT from the above I understand that the planner is inexperienced but has clearly done the best they could following the guidelines.
Criticism in an open forum may well be damaging to that person -even experienced planners don't get it right every time .
I'm sure that the club concerned will advise and assist,

[graeme]

from the above I understand that the planner is inexperienced but has clearly done the best they could following the guidelines.

Maybe you should read it again. All I've seen from people who went has said that the courses were excellent, enjoyable, challenging and well planned. The ONLY criticism is that they didn't follow the guidelines for "blue" (and a bit of wibbling from housewife about the mapping).

[Clive Coles]

All I've seen from people who went has said that the courses were excellent, enjoyable, challenging and well planned. The ONLY criticism is that they didn't follow the guidelines for "blue

Well ~ that's what Planners like to see ~ satisfaction and plaudits from those who actually attend.

Guidelines are just that ~ you should plan to make the best use of the technical nature of the area.

I actually laugh sometimes at the way some events are registered. So often default values are left unaltered on the registration course matrix. Amazed to find that so many planners can provide 3 "very hard" courses on average areas. Who is kidding who ?

i guess some will argue providing you can provide one TD5 leg on a course you can claim the guidelines are met.

[Grahame N]

I was the (Scottish) planner for Craig a Barns on Sunday (there was no controller). It was the 4th event I've planned so not a complete novice. I must admit I've never looked at official course length guidelines, just based them on previous experience and creating interesting logical courses. I think this is okay for 'local' level D events. This was not a major (or even minor) competition.

Our local events are aimed at attracting newcomers, encouraging beginners and laying on a couple of courses for experienced orienteers to train on. The colour coding is used fairly loosely, especially for the harder courses.

We had a huge turnout on Sunday and ran out of Green maps so some people who would normally do Green bravely upgraded to Blue, hence there were some very long times. However almost everyone I spoke to afterwards had enjoyed their day and many were full of praise for the planning. Even the professional officer emailed later to say thankyou for "an excellent little event".

Craig a Barns is full on TD5 and our event attracted a number of top orienteers wanting a run in a tough area, they were not disappointed.

Graeme, if you did not come because the 6.6km Blue was way overlong, why did you not come and do the Green.

For level C and above events then careful planning, using the guidelines, is essential. But for wee local events I dont think hours and hours of precise planning is necessary. We should be laying them on with the minimum amount of work.

[Jethro]

I wasn't there - work prevented me attending - but having read this thread I wish I had been. I agree wholeheartedly with Graham N's sentiments.

[graeme]

Graeme, if you did not come because the 6.6km Blue was way overlong, why did you not come and do the Green.

That's a good question, worth an answer...

When I look an event, one of the things I ask is "Do they know what they're doing?". It's not easy to answer this in advance, but if I see the distances are "obviously wrong" I'll conclude that other things won't be well done either.

This time I got the call wrong, but down the years it has served me well.

Plus I'm trashed at the moment for anything requiring balance, so I've entered light green at the Trossachs

[andypat]

For level C and above events then careful planning, using the guidelines, is essential. But for wee local events I dont think hours and hours of precise planning is necessary. We should be laying them on with the minimum amount of work.

I'm going to offer an alternate view having spent the weekend chatting to interested non-orienteers and gauging what they wanted to know in advance from an Orienteering event.

One of the key things people wanted to know from us was "Are there courses suitable for families/novices?"

Now this should be an easy question to answer looking at pre-info for an event. After all the reason the colour coded system is there is to provide a standard template so that you can be sure you are entering the right course for your level. If planners consistently ignore the guidelines, but continue to use the same terms, I'd be worried about the impact this would have on any newcomers, and this is all the more important at small local level D events in my opinion.

Albeit it sounds like most people enjoyed the event, it worries me slightly that Grahame admits to never having looked at course guidelines and this is his 4th event as planner. I check the guidelines for every event I plan even small park sprints, whether its to ensure I have the correct TD, or an appropriate winning time. Have you planned any events that had a controller who could offer you some mentoring?

Just had a good look at the results from this event. I dont know Grahame and wasnt at the event (I'd a reasonable excuse though) so i'm wary of being over critical but I think the key points I'd take from this as planner are:

21 failure to complete out of 69 is a 30% failure rate (at a local event!)
Only 4 of 8 on yellow completed the course in under an hour (1DNF)
Only 2 of 18 on Orange completed the course in under an hour (7DNF)

I think if these were the stats you were aiming for then fair enough you have achieved your goal in giving people an unexpectedly tough day out. If not, then perhaps a wee look here http://www.britishorienteering.org.uk/images/uploaded/downloads/events_guideline_b.pdf might offer some guidance for next time.

I notice that for the JK2012 at Craig a Barns the Orange course was 2.8k 70m climb. On Sunday the Orange was quoted on the website as 3.5k and 225m climb. Ouch!

[housewife]

As someone who was at the event, I'd like to thank the Tayside team for putting on such am excellent little event. Car park, start, finish, registration, download, loos, and cake stall all within 50m. Planning was great - although you can't go far wrong if you run people around the top for long enough. Personally I'd have happily run around a course twice as long, but that definitely wouldn't have been a blue... Happy days!

[housewife]

And if we are adhering strictly to British orienteering guidelines, what proportion of areas are truly able to support td5 (pushed to the max of navigational skill) courses? This is why Craig a Barnes was such a welcome respite from the usual Scottish winter type events - country parks etc. even at gullane only very few controls were properly td5, due to the nature of the area.

[andypat]

Thought you might say that - and I'm glad you did, planners need encouragement, but also support- the point about TD5 is a good one and has been made by others. I'm pretty sure most of those experienced orienteers who finished would agree with you. But as we look towards 2015 and the possibility of increasing numbers of novices hitting the woods, I think its important that we dont lose new people by sending them out on courses they havent the resources to tackle. Thats why TD1-5 exists and why in my opinion the guidelines for planning are important.

The ONLY criticism is that they didn't follow the guidelines for "blue" (and a bit of wibbling from housewife about the mapping).

I suspect people who do orange and yellow dont come on here that often. My wife has suffered a few dubious oranges in the past so I feel I am speaking for her. Also my son who runs white in around 20min will probably be trying some yellows after the summer - but he might not be up to TAY yellows by the looks of it...

[Grahame N]

In reply to andypat

Thanks for the link to the BO website, I've not looked at that before, its very helpful. However I notice that it says “this guideline is only intended to provide advice, no compulsion is intended”. I agree that my Orange course was longer than the guidelines but it went to fantastic feature called the 'rocking stone' and followed a magical path through a wonderful part of the forest. Again the Yellow was long but was on lovely footpaths, and there was in fact only one dnf, an M3 who did a shortened version of the course. Next time (if there is one) if I have time I'll pay attention to the guidelines, but if the terrain suggests a longer (or shorter) route I'll not be constrained by them. If you disagree I suggest you tell BOF to change their guidelines to rules. But for gawds sake theres enough rules as it is.

I totally agree that the easier courses should be the correct technical difficulty to prevent youngsters or novices being put off. This is far more important than the course length. I think I acheived that at Craig a Barns. Hopefully our IT wizard will get Routegadget up and you can see the courses. There was a steep descent on the Orange (and harder courses) that some people didnt enjoy, but thats another matter.

As to your assumption that the dnfs were due to the length of the courses - you weren't there, how do you know! You didn't see the blizzard, or the man who lost his dog half way round, or the injured runner, or person who lost their SI Card, or the man with two young boys who couldnt be persuaded not to do the Blue. There are many reasons why people cut short their runs.

As to your comment about your son not being up to TAY yellows, what a stupid comment, I'm not the only planner in TAY and every event is different.

Now here's another admission; I didn't visit all the control sites on Green and Blue until putting out the controls on Saturday afternoon, another crime no doubt. I used a number of sites that were used at the JK guessing that they would be good features. But I can assure you that all the controls were in the correct place.

I enjoy orienteering but what bugs me is the amount of bureaucracy, red tape (metaphorically), health & safety, shadowing, embargos, levies ...... levies, on Sunday instead of relaxing with a beer afterwards I had to work out numbers of BOF adults, BOF juniors, non BOF adults, non BOF ... what nonsense is this. Is BOF trying to discourage people putting on events. At an informal local event surely there shouldn't be levies, theres enough work as it is.
At another local event I planned (at Blackspout) we had 8 runners. The amount of time planning, organising, putting out & taking in controls far exceeded the total time all the runners spent on their courses.

Anyway I've rambled on long enough, my opinion is that 'local' level D events should be put on with the minimum amount of organising/planning/fuss as possible, and if that means that sometimes the course lengths fall outwith the Guidelines then so be it. People like Graeme and Andy will miss out on some great orienteering.

[Grahame N]

On a lighter note, I went for a run over Craig a Barns in the gloaming yesterday evening to look for some kit lost on Sunday.
And amazingly, talk about needles in haystacks, I found the lost SI Card. But sorry Robin I couldn't find your compass.

[SIman]

Thanks for looking, Grahame. A replacement was probably due anyway.
And thanks again for the courses. I was expecting to be challenged - I just wish I hadn't had so much relocation practice

[greywolf]

I wasn't there, and am happy to accept that those who were enjoyed their courses, especially the hard case W35s

Colour coded courses are often the wrong length because the planner / controller don't understand the guidelines / don't know how fast the top elite run / can't do the really really complex math required to make e.g a green course 39% of a notional black course that a top elite would win in ~67 elite mins, etc .... but in this case it seems that the guidelines weren't consulted and the club's view is that "we tend to use the colours blue and green fairly loosely at our local events and they really refer to short and long TD hard as we can make it for the area courses" - so why don't you just call them that instead of using colours which mean something else?

perhaps the most disturbing comment on the whole thread is that an event with 48 finishers is considered to have a huge turnout....

[Sunlit Forres]

It's amazing what a furore a simple statement (that was intended to be constructive) can create!

Going back to my original post, all that this was meant to say was "please tell us what's in the tin". I don't really mind what courses are offered at Level D events, but let me explain why it's important, in my case, to know what I'm taking on.

I have an implantable cardioverter defibrillator (an ICD), an amazing bit of kit. I had it fitted because if I push myself beyond a certain limit of exertion or fatigue my heart is liable to ventricular tachycardia, as has happened three times in the past. The many medical professionals who orienteer (and I suspect those who don't) will know that this is not something you desperately want to happen out in Craig a' Barns. My ICD provides instant 400-volt therapy, which makes it safe for me to continue with my orienteering, but if it does, I then have to hand in my driving license for 6 months.

Over the years I have come to know my limits, and I'm confident that I'm fine tackling a course where I'm not going to be out for much longer than 50 minutes, I don't have any horrendous climbs, and I restrain my natural urge to run too fast. A green course, planned to green course guidelines, fits the bill perfectly.

Had I been at Craig a Barns, I would have been wary about tackling a 5 km course in that sort of terrain, but had I not known the terrain, I would have gone ahead and entered green, expecting (as a competent, but steady-paced orienteer) to get round in about 50 minutes - I'm a pretty similar standard to Freefall who took nearly 70.

I hope that explains why I think this is important, and that Grahame doesn't take offence. It sounds an absolutely superb event and deserved a turnout more befitting of Greywolf's definition of "huge".