British sprints and middle

[Paul Frost]

but at the end of the day are we putting on events for competitors or to make clubs/BO money?

We have to be careful when using the phrases "make money" or "make a profit".

The costs of having a map professionally made or updated, buying/replacing kit and helping out financially for volunteers to gain qualifications in coaching etc. has to come from somewhere. So those "profits" from larger events enable clubs to do the other stuff that being an orienteering club requires.

Interestingly, there are always loads of cheap road and crosscountry races around, many of which attract quality entries but they usually have a small turnout.
Some people confuse price with quality.

But those cheap road and crosscountry races probably don't require the amount of preparation/organising time or costs of electronic timing and a map that we do.
I agree that price doesn't guarantee quality, but if there is little or no "profit" from an event it's unlikely a club can provide the quality that we have come to expect. Like a recently updated map, electronic timing, quick publication of results, RouteGadget, a decent website, etc.
You could always charge a large membership fee and use that money to pay for the stuff, but it seems fairer to try and make events self funding and keep membership fees low or free, which might also encourage more people to become members.

So expensive events could be rubbish, but very cheap events are less likely to be very good as there is no money to pay for the extras.

[SeanC]

mmm, complaints again about prices where we don't know the costs.

My personal view is that the sprint/middle weekend has potential as one which could help to keep the M/W21 types in the sport if designed as a town+country weekend with public transport and socialising designed as part of the event, ie the event is more than just top quality orienteering. EBOR could show us how it's done this year with their track record at the White Rose and the ideal location in and near York. Shuttle bus from the station? Marquee at the events (if there isn't an event centre)? Something organised for Saturday night?

For most who don't live in YH, the entry fees will be insignificant compared to the transport/accommodation/eating out costs so it make sense to go for quality+ (slightly more) expensive rather than cheap. Many clubs will have (cheap) local events that weekend so why drive 500 miles or spend lots of money on the train unless it's something special?

[graeme]

JK sprint entry was £8:50, and will not be rubbish.

If you're worried about quality, please feel free to send INT a cheque for £6:50 to make up the difference.
Elsewise, for an extra £4 you get a couple of adjacent training maps and courses planned by a proper elite with profits to SEDS. If you can't be bothered doing the training, think of it as a donation
http://www.scottish-orienteering.org/jk2012/training

[ryeland of doom]

Local clubs "not charging enough" means that those of us not in regular employment can enjoy some sport.

A big thank you to all of you out there who have not followed some other sports and have kept orienteering affordable. It is really appreciated.


The claim that the sport is too cheap and therefore "not worth it" worries the hell out of me. I am terrified that it will go the same way as some other activities I used to enjoy and suffer from rampant inflation, often because of growing gaps in pay. I can accept being priced out because of costs being passed on, but not prices being raised for mere image reasons. Low paid folk are very much the numerical majority - perhaps we should use our affordability as a selling point.

JK - I have recently completed a short spell of work in Livingston, on the mapped area and it looks the business for sprint-O. It will be good.

[Glucosamine]

Parkrun = electronic (barcode scanner) timing = web results = zero cost on day = increasing numbers = many volunteers. The average local road/country race seems by comparison to be effectively a fundraiser in return for the volunteer input. So it can be done, albeit with sponsorship, and with no map.

With web results, should we ask for web accounts so we can see where the money goes?

[drobin]

These are the real and expected costs per competitor for the Basingstoke 2012 urban event;

Cost per competitor: (assuming 200 competitors)

BOF Levy 2.15
SCOA levy 0.15
Map printing 0.58
Fabian 0.50
Map survey 5.00 paid
Emit 1.00
Centre hire 0.39 paid
Total £9.77

So what do you suggest an acceptable entry fee should be?

[andypat]

Couple of points:

If you were charged a grand for your urban map can I do your next one!

And do you think its reaosnable to recoup the entire survey cost on one event?

And another (sorry thats 3)
Where does the £1 for emit come from?

[drobin]

100 hours over 10 days surveying. The map at 1:5000 is 400mm x 400mm!
Emit is running the IT on the day & results and providing the e-cards
Will there be another event?

[Spookster]

These are the real and expected costs per competitor for the Basingstoke 2012 urban event;

Cost per competitor: (assuming 200 competitors)

BOF Levy 2.15
SCOA levy 0.15
Map printing 0.58
Fabian 0.50
Map survey 5.00 paid
Emit 1.00
Centre hire 0.39 paid
Total £9.77

So what do you suggest an acceptable entry fee should be?

First, BOF Levy would be £1.31 per head for 200 people (assuming 150 seniors and 50 juniors). So then you have costs of £8.93 per person, or £1786 total.

Entry fees at £11 senior and £4 junior would raise £1850. But I think an urban race in Basingstoke will get more than 200 people, so you'll actually be well over £100 surplus.

[Paul Frost]

JK sprint entry was £8:50, and will not be rubbish.

I referred to fees of £1 or £2 when I commented about them not being able to sustain an ongoing programme without subsidy from somewhere else. These events often have relatively low turnouts, so covering all the costs is not achievable. It's different if you can rely on getting over 100 people to every event, the economies of scale start to cut in.
With the JK Sprint you can be confident that there will be a large number of entries for the main event and so the £8.50s will mount up to a large pile of cash to cover the costs.

Some clubs may have a supply of good mappers that have the time and skills to produce or update maps, but other clubs will have to pay professional mappers to do the same job.

Some volunteers have the financial security not to claim any expenses for travel etc. but it can then be awkward for those more financially challenged to submit a claim.

I'm not saying you should just charge extra for the hell of it, but be honest about what it really costs to put on an event.

[Paul Frost]

...so you'll actually be well over £100 surplus.

Considering the risks involved with loss or damage of equipment, unforeseen expenses and weather etc. the possibility of making £100 surplus on an £1850 turnover doesn't sound like a good financial decision.

The list of costs don't include:
Planner/organiser/controller expenses?
Proportion of the depreciation value of the kit used?
Spare maps printed in case more on-the-day entries than expected?

£200 for professional computing/results service looks a bargain.

Like I said above, lets be honest (to ourselves) about what it really costs.

[drobin]

I based my figures on Didcot 2010 : 197 competitors, 26 children
and Guildford 2011 : 233 competitors, 18 children.
I would like to break even, though a loss is expected (because of the map), but I'm still interested to know what is an acceptable entry fee.

[IanD]

Discussion about "excessive" profits seem to recur from time to time.

Clubs make profits on some events, sometimes bigger than they anticipated (and losses on others). At the end of the day, as long as all the money goes to funding orienteering in some form or other, who cares?

[awk]

Clubs make profits on some events, sometimes bigger than they anticipated (and losses on others). At the end of the day, as long as all the money goes to funding orienteering in some form or other, who cares?

I concur with Ian, but want to focus a bit more on that little word 'profit'. A club is not a profit making organisation. Anyway, to equate 'profit' or 'surplus' with a single event, as so many seem to have done here, is to my mind a mistake.

A club has a programme of activity, and the income and expenditure is spread across that programme. Each club makes a decision as to how to balance these figures, depending on their programme and priorities. For instance, some might charge more for their big public events, bringing in more income to balance lower fees for more local events. Others might charge less for the bigger events, but may not keep the local fees as low. Others again might go for a middle route. All in all, there are quite a lot of variants. And then there are the big one off charges (e.g. for land use), which are in some cases charged against the one event itself, in othesr written off against the longer term programme.

So....to take one event in isolation doesn't make any sense (to the extent that I have little interest in an event's accounts, as they don't show the real picture at all). In fact, it all makes about as much sense as talking about 'profit', when every club I'm aware of (including the club involved in this year's British Middle and Sprints) has a policy of ploughing money back into the sport. So much for 'profit'.

[Jayne]

moan moan, cost cost. It's still a cheap day out compared to most other activities that cost anything.

Other arguments aside, is this really true? For anyone who's going to travel, either by train or by car, or going to stay a night in York it's not really going to be that cheap a day out, is it? Obviously this isn't going to bother me, as orienteering is my sport and I'll happily pay to go, but I don't think we can argue that doing the races is cheap. (and in fact, apart from the London Marathon at £38 every other road race - for those who use that argument - I've entered this year has been £15 or less)