JK Relay

[Monte]

Not at the same level, Madmike.

Looking at last year's results, 1st leg, 1st 6 back:
JKTrophy - all 6 currently ranked in top 25.
Men's Short - best ranked is currently about 75th (2 juniors may appear in a similar position when they've amassed enough events).

[distracted]

Graeme - agree entirely - we are in need of a fun relay competition which people will aspire to take part in, which is competitive in different ways for people throughout the field. It seems in Britain we are far too intent on diluting the competition for the reasons Neil states in why Southdowns (one of the biggest clubs in the UK!) don't have a JK Trophy team...

For those who use a course lengths argument, in 2009 they were:

JK Trophy course lengths: 5.2k, 4.3k, 4.3k, 5.2k (Winning time - 103 minutes)
Women's Trophy lengths: 4.8k, 3.4k, 4.8k (Winning time - 87 minutes)

Are 3.4km for the women and 4.3km for the men honestly too long for the older classes to complete? Using the individual course lengths (on hillier areas), first women's course shorter than that was W75/W55S. First men's course shorter - M70/M55S. Similarly in 2008, shortest legs 4.8k on men's, 4.3k on women's - with the equivalent individual courses the same as above.

So on that basis, there shouldn't be a problem combining the 165+, 120+ and short onto the Trophy course for both men's and women's. Keep the junior courses (combining men's and women's classes where appropriate) and an ad-hoc, and you're down to 5 relay classes rather than 13! Much more of a festival, much more exciting competition, easier load on the volunteer workforce and better for the spectators too. Arguments against?

[awk]

Arguments against?

None from me! Graeme and you have highlighted on the two things that must be done to put the JK Relay back where it belongs. First of all it must be held earlier in the weekend, as the centrepiece, rather than as a bolt on. A lot of orienteers are rather tired on the Monday after 4 days of racing, not helped by the fact that for most it's two days of 'long' distance. Secondly, we need to get away from the standard British response that if the M/W21s are doing Xkm, then older must do even shorter, even if the M/W21s are already running a short distance. Merging classes together into fewer races (with any team able to win upwards amongst the classes, and no 'short') has to be the way forward.

Personally, I'd love to see the Sprint followed by the Relay, and then the two individuals. Probably wouldn't bother with the last two days then, and go and get some holiday!

[NeilC]

The 4th day factor is real and many of my team mates request shorter courses because of this. However many others want to get on the road at a reasonable time and so having the individuals (and thus prize-giving) on the Monday would not be popular either.

I wouldn't object if the short opens went - we do them because they are there and for the reasons stated earlier. Is this something that Senior Competitions Group should be looking at?

[DJM]

From the CompassSport JK preview:

The Relay (will) provide truly technically difficult courses - when appropriate - to sort teams out, which has not always been a feature of recent years.

Does this preclude "head-to-head" racing?

[RS]

Totally agree with Awk's last post above. Sprint and relay are my favourite bits of JK weekend too

[Blonde bombshell]

But not for others.

I have no interest in the sprint.
Relays would be fun if I was out for about 30mins (at my speed - slow). All too often I end up running further on the relay then on the individual. There needs to be more short courses for the older runners.

I enter the JK for the quality races on day 2 & 3. Quality = terrain, planning & competition against own age group.

[graeme]

All too often I end up running further on the relay then on the individual.

Which you obviously perceive as a problem.
But at successful mass-participation relays like Jukola *most* people run longer than their "age class". For most people its their longest race of the year (it was for me). How can you simultaneously "have no interest in sprint" and want to be out for 30mins (which, if you are slow as you say, is how long a sprint would take you )

[andypat]

I think I understand a little of what BB is saying , and its probably not something that top level orienteers (like graeme ) would understand. Its about the nature of the team event and the feeling of letting your teammates down even if you have a good run because the longer the leg, the farther you perceive yourself to be behind even if comparatively you are the same % behind. I wouldnt be competitive in an open relay event but would run my socks of in a shorter one.

[Blonde bombshell]

I state 30 mins for a relay because I don't think standing around for longer then that produces the excitement I expect from a relay. The relay should be short, sharp and technical. Eccessive run ins/outs are also not what I want either.

My dislike of sprints is probably due to the name and types of areas used. If they were described as short courses and were in technical terrain away from the general public (ie not around unis or towns) I would probably think them perfect

[EddieH]

My dislike of sprints is probably due to the name and types of areas used. If they were described as short courses and were in technical terrain away from the general public (ie not around unis or towns) I would probably think them perfect

So sad you think this - I know so many who WON'T do it simply because it is called sprint.

Regarding the type of terrain, I know loads of people (including myself) who felt exactly the same but once they tried it completely changed their minds.

I think Graeme's idea is brilliant, except that I don't think the days should be changed as I believe the event would lose many more people. Incidentally the relay was on the Sunday with a chasing start from Saturday's individual result on the Monday at Beaudesert in approx 1981. It was not generally voted a success.

[awk]

Its about the nature of the team event and the feeling of letting your teammates down even if you have a good run....

You let your team mates down a lot more by not running!

This appears to be a peculiarly British attitude - relays are a lot more participation based abroad, where everybody appears to get stuck in.

The relay should be short, sharp and technical.

In other words, a sprint!!

[mharky]

Men Trophy: 5km / 4km / 6km, TD5
Women Trophy: 4km / 3km / 5km, TD5
Junior: 3km / 3km / 3km, TD2/3?
Vet: 3km / 3km / 3km, TD5 for 60+

There could be over 200 teams running Men's trophy.

But no one likes coming 200th, eh? Much better to win the Short Class I guess...

(The Trophy courses should really be double that, but there isn't the depth of talent in GBR to justify having a proper relay)

[Mrs H]

I know so many who WON'T do it simply because it is called sprint.

Yes Eddie - but do you know anyone who has tried it (even those who did it against their will) who didn't like it.

Look at Lumpy - self confessed anti sprint/urban race runner (she so hard core she runs black - and she's a W50) she only tried it because I bullied her into it and now she's volunteer HOC Urban race development guru.

Before anyone comes on here saying anything about sprint/urban races they have to to have done at least 3 proper sprint/urban races.

[Blonde bombshell]

Relay - short, sharp & technical - not a 'sprint'. The word sprint indicates running fast - for many of us the challenge of orienteering is the navigation. Call these races short & we would be happier. Again most sprints seem to be in urban terrain. Put them in a forest and you might get more interest from us oldies.

Don't forget the huge range of abilities in BOF. For those at the front of the course it might be a sprint, but for many more it isn't. However, 30 mins was optimistic for me, I really meant 45mins.

Mrs H - are you suggesting that because I don't like sprints I haven't tried them? Surely on a discussion forum we should be able to have differing views.

At no point have I said anything against sprints - just that they are not for me. They are a good way to advertise the sport and have obviously been a success for many, but give me a forest any day.