Orienteering is dead

[frog]

If you reduce the price of colour codeds you could make a loss though. We were discussing the south of Scotland colour codeds last night and 1 of the events in a good area made a loss. This was due to the cost of portaloos. At small local events you can get away without them, but they are expected to be available at larger events and the FC sometimes insists on them.
If clubs do make a profit it just goes into producing more maps anyway usually.
Local events often make a loss, particularly come and try it events so clubs need some profitable events.

[EddieH]

Mark T It is one hell of an assumption that cheaper entry fees will increase participation by 500%. If you believe that organise an appropriate event and try it. Fees may prevent you going MarkT but I don't believe they make the difference you think. Travel costs are far more significant for most of the 1000 people you are expecting as wel as all the other factors.

[NickC]

The other option is to increase the membership fee to join BOF and then considerably reduce the cost of entering events. This is the situation in France where a senior entry for a regional event is 5 Euros in 2009 (and, of course, minimal levy to the federation). For "infrequent" orienteers, there is a "day-pass" for entry at a higher fee (8.50 Euros).

[andypat]

Not sure that wouldnt be couter productive. My adult renewal was £40 something for BOF/SOA/club (do other sports have this weird sort of triple breakdown?) and it wouldnt have to be a lot more for me to think twice, particuarly if I could just pay a bit more to enter a few events.

[roadrunner]

Colour coded events shouldn't need to be more than £3 or £4 for a senior and badge events £5! Juniors no more than £2.

I'm not sure how you could get those levels. BOF levy (if I understand correctly) is £1-60 after the first 75 and £2-60 after the first 250 (and that includes juniors), so say around £2 if you get the increased participation you're talking about. Then there's land access fees - for SCOA this was about £1/head for army land in 2004, I think the FC charges more than that, not to mention toilets, first aid, EMIT/SI equipment hire (unless the club has its own, but in this case the event should surely be covering part of the cost) etc. Mapping a decent area is £1500 at least, you could use the map for several events, but it will become out of date in 2-3 years in many cases, so one year's worth of events should cover say £500 at least. And last but not least, clubs expect to generate some income from the events they stage. So I can't see how such a price would be viable in general, although I'm sure there are exceptions.

Why are orienteers so concerned about the entry cost anyway? Road races are often £10 for 10k, up to £30 for a half marathon and fill up early at these prices, while I'm told that triathlons can cost £100+ and fill up even earlier. As EddieH said, travel costs can easily dominate the entry fee - even for a fairly local event. Take as an example the Oxford race on Saturday: travel cost from Reading by public transport would be £8 for the train and £3-40 for a bus (petrol to drive plus the park and ride would be more than this), total £11-40 against an entry fee of £8.

[madmike]

Why are orienteers so concerned about the entry cost anyway?

not convinced orienteers in general are fixated on entry costs. D'accord with your points and Eddie's above; however, like all walks of life there are vocal minorities.
That said I do have some sympathy for those with large families.

Personal view, based on experience of getting it wrong at a large event, is that organisers should offer cheap entries for a very early window, normal entry fee for the majority of the time and punitive for those who enter in the last 48 hours before entries close. Therefore, if you are concerned about entry fees then get organised and enter early.

Mark T - your figures just don't stand up to even cursory scruitiny

[ryeland of doom]

The hideous entry fees of lifestyle sports de jour scare me. I am terrified that they will spread to orienteering (even after returning from a very enjoyable £1 event).
So many activities I used to enjoy have gone off into the sunset chasing the large number of affluent customers - I used to watch rugby and the round ball game.

Meanwhile as for early entries
"Therefore, if you are concerned about entry fees then get organised and enter early"

Can you tell that to the injury fairy. Over the last 30 years, half my fees paid have resulted in no run. If the event is expensive - eg BOC 2008. I have not risked entering. One of the many benefits of modern technology is being able to enter when having a fairly good idea that you will be capable of running.

As for the future, I have always felt that orienteering has never really sold itself. Did not need too in the 1970s, I suppose, but there seems to be no press coverage - we can give local papers results now. No publicity in libraries and schools (OK I know some of you are doing this). On holiday in France, I have often seen posters for forthcoming events in shop windows etc... There is a lot of slack to take up there. We have a lot to offer - look what happened when the cyclists took to terrain and forests - what about letting folk know what happens when runners do the same.

And ditch the map reading exercise image. I have amazed pupils by telling them that there is a world championship in orienteering. Folk are often unaware that this is a real sport with real action - and we will lose more ground with the village sports day in 2012 when the chosen sports grab all the attention

[Scott]

I think we'll see a much more substantial effort from BOF on the national publicity front over the next few years - with the end of UK Sport funding coming in 2013, sponsorship is being seen as a potential source of income for the international scheme, but that will require a generally higher profile for the sport than at present.

[Catfish]

Military seem to be on the right track, averaging over 300 hundred runners weekly on a Wed . This week they had nearly 450 competitors. Why are they successful;
value for money £2.50 with own emit card, 4 courses Brown, Blue, Red and Orange, starts 1100 to 1430,regular traders attend burger van and ultra sport, slick event admin, results up on BAOC website by 1900hrs, good individual league rivalry and finally a welcoming attitude for all that attend.

Try this, if your military get of your arse and take your wednesday afternoon sports period and if your a civvy in the South of England do a bit of flexi and start work at 0700 or throw a sicky and come and join us, and if your a student or six former take a scive.

Finally if your a civvy and you like the idea of a sports afternoon then enlist

EVERYBODY IS MORE THAN WELCOME

[madmike]

Catfish,
agree MLS is tremendos vfm and very welcoming. These event are done as military training. Therefore, no land fees and no BOF levy, which are major cost drivers. Not possible for civvy clubs to match this vfm. If only they could

[Jon Brooke]

For me it's not just the financial expense of running a car, it's also the CO2 emissions and also my perception of of the use of fuel for something frivolous (as I've become more aware of the global peak oil situation). Where I personally draw the line seems to be about 50 miles away, and only as far as that if my wife and kids are coming too, or I can find someone to carshare with. I'll still travel to a few more distant events, but only special things like the Lakes 5 days, the OMM or a good long-O, which in my mind have a better cost/benefit ratio. So yes, from my POV travel is the limiting factor far ahead of entry fees (although obviously cheaper entries are better - and often uncorrelated with the fun I have at an event).

So, from my POV I guess I would rather have however many locals (2 or 3?) equate to a regional in terms of effort/expense to put on. Some of my most enjoyable events have been informals and military events - simple, cheap and fun.

[SeanC]

I think Mrs H's concept of "Extra Value Orienteering" is worth resurrecting. I suspect many/most orienteering families these days have just one Orienteer in the family. I'm certainly put off travelling to regional events because I miss out on family time. Would love to have been at the November Classic but sadly ended up in the Medway branch of Toys R Us.

If publicity officers could help sharpen up club's fliers to point out attractions that might keep the non-orienteers amused and/or a decent place for sunday dinner, then this helps the case for pushing the whole family into the car for several hours. A 15 minute string course is helpful if the weather is ok, but the long wait in the car for dad to thrash around a brown course does not sell.

I'll see if I can persuade our regional event organiser to put the Ashdown Forest Llama Park on the Chelwood flier which is just over the road from the orienteering car park. You may enjoy it even if you are over 10 years old. We'll see what the nearby The Red Lion is like after Thursday's Kent Night Cup.

Of course local events are less of a problem to nip out for a couple of hours without taking up the whole day.

[Red Adder]

Another problem with Mark T's comment that events are too expensive is that he might not be aware that most events take place on areas mapped by volunteers on an expenses only basis. I know you can cut the figures many ways but I would expect that for your average CC event with 200 entries on an A4 size map is probably subsidised by the mapper at £2-3 per entry (both junior and senior) , assuming that they were just paid national minimum wage. Of course the mappers do get a lot of pleasure from their work and don't feel too guilty for not volunteering for the bits of the sport that don't interest them so much.

[Arnold]

I agree that a lower cost wouldn't make much difference.
As it is, even at £10 orienteering is a massive bargain vs. road races, triathlons, adventure theme parks etc.

The difference is that most people do a triathlon a few times a year so are happy to fork out £50 each time. But until recently many people went orienteering to high infrastructure events (ie colour coded or above) most weekends.

At least in the South-East, It seems that's changing and I don't think the cost is the issue. Rather it's (i) other things people and their families can do with their time especially considering the travel time required; and (ii) the fact the same areas get used over and over and over again, even if they're not that good.

Which again points towards (a lot) fewer high-infrastructure events, and more local events that are easy to get to and use more newish areas...

[SJC]

Which again points towards (a lot) fewer high-infrastructure events, and more local events that are easy to get to and use more newish areas...

Agreed. However this doesn't appear to be the way the fixtures structure is heading. The number of Regional events in 2010 is higher than in 2009, and it's hard to believe they will all be of a high enough quality to justify travelling to. I though the new event structure was supposed to have addressed this by having some sort of quality criteria imposed on these events, but so far it doesn't seem to have happened.