The Demise of Elite Junior Orienteering Competitions

[DM]

Some of the best (attended by winners and non winners alike) prize givings I've been to have been the last 2 Mourne Mountain Marathons and the OMM, and a mountain bike race; prizes were cash or vouchers or quality kit.

Some of the worst have been O events and the last 2 Saunders MM, where prizes have been, in no particular order of desirability;
Socks that don't fit the large recipient,
Shot glasses and beer on a course where juniors often win,
Stools that fall apart on first use.

Common theme is cash, that can be used for something the winner actually wants.

I know several people who don't even bother to wait around for prizes of the second type.

A cash prize helps but the main thing for me is the finish position.

BTW I can thouroughly recommend the Mourne MM, even for 2nd place we got £150 vouchers. It's well organised, friendly and terrain is decent. Always in Sept so less chance of freezing than the OMM.

[Whitesheep]

There has been a fair bit of talk about prize money, and lots of generous offers to donate. If the FCC idea is going to work, it is going to need to be something that can be relied upon year after year - but it is easy to imagine a scenario where offers of prize money dwindle. It would be a shame if that affected how the competition were perceived.

So how about trying to set up an endowment fund for all these donations?

A lot of people are talking very enthusiastically about their good O experiences as juniors. Many of these will have been lucky enough in later life to justify contributions - several people have mentioned 3 figures, a few would I'm sure go to 4. It sounds like it should be possible to get, say, a £10k fund together which could support a £500 FCC prize fund in perpetuity.

Are there many endowment funds kicking around in orienteering at the moment? Anyone have the experience to say whether this is a good idea?

FWIW: (a) I would definitely contribute, (b) I would happily help out with the fund (but I'm not an expert), (c) I would favour cash prizes, which top juniors would very likely spend on O kit/tours anyway, (d) I would prefer to see the top 6 get a meaningful prize rather than winner-takes-all, (e) I agree making FCC a selection race is more important, and (f) running lists like this should never get as far as "(f)" - sorry.

[Junior Cup]

After having several more offers of financial support this weekend, and having spent more time thinking about the longevity of the Junior Cup, it was entirely my intention to set up a system where people could make donations.

I think there are probably a lot of people out there who would be willing to contribute. Perhaps it would be worth setting up Gold, Silver and Bronze levels of donation of £100, £50 and £25.

This is something that has definitely been though about and will be followed up. There are lots of generous people out there who are willing to donate small amounts, but added up all together they could make a real success of the cup.

And all accounts will be made publicly available, just like major events used to do.

MN

[Mrs H]

There's the O Foundation chaired by Peter Christopher - I was asked to be a trustee but I'm afraid I turned it down But I've a feeling this might be right up their street. Some info here

[Lard]

O Foundation?

Don't do it Nixon. The only way to protect and ensure the money goes where you want it to is to keep it in safe hands!

Every Fund/Foundation I've ever come across is pushed and pulled in all directions and often fails to do the right thing. Most committees are aged and often have issues with financing prizes/prize money etc (trust me I am an aged member of a similar committee).

If this Fund is created as as stand-alone FCC Support Fund then it can and should be able to simply do what it ays on the tin.

[Mrs H]

Sorry! I was only trying to help.

[bewildered]

A question just struck me on the way back from looking at potential courses for an English Schools Fell Race (we have similar discussions in Fellrunning).

If you argue for the winners of the FCC Final to be guaranteed JWOC places, is there any evidence that they are good enough for selection?

By that, I mean, how well have the FCC Champions done in JWOC compared to their teammates?

[Lard]

how well have the FCC Champions done in JWOC compared to their teammates?

In all my years I can only remember one incidence where an FCC Final winner wasn't one of the better performers at JWOC (Lakes, back garden, etc etc) but they still deserved to go.

How often do junior athletes have to really step up to the plate and perform? Generally, selections in the UK are based on a number of races (so if an athlete has a couple of blowouts or average performances they can still make the team) this doesn't necessarily produce the best team - those that can really cope under pressure.

IMO - JWOC should be like the WOC selections - based on races over one weekend with a couple of all-known form races in the run-up to use as back-up in case someone falls ill on the key weekend. If you can't perform under the pressure of a final selection race you won't perform at JWOC (WOC).

[awk]

If you argue for the winners of the FCC Final to be guaranteed JWOC places, is there any evidence that they are good enough for selection?

I think that begs the question, is the winner of any selection race good enough for selection? Your question is more one of what is the worth of a selection race versus, for instance, selecting on all known form. And, if you can't perform at a pre-designated specific race, are you likely to be able to perform any better than others at JWOC?

The other thing to bear in mind is that one of the roles of JWOC and the surrounding structure is to provide up and coming elite athletes with the chance to prepare for elite orienteering, when you have to be able to perform at selection races and WOC. Whether the FCC winners perform better at JWOC or not, the junior structure should in broad terms emulate what they are likely to encounter at senior level.

[graeme]

I have always found the whole idea of selection bizarre. Especially this idea that there are some people who always perform well in selection races, and badly enough otherwise not to be picked.

Every year, there are a couple of people who really have a chance to "podium". And a bunch of fringe runners of pretty similar standard to one another. Selecting the first group is important for the team . Selecting from the second is important for those athletes.

The other problem with the fringe group is that one can always construct "all known form" to support any choice. So the selectors are always vulnerable to accusation of favoritism. Since "selection" won't predictably strengthen the team, but is of enormous importance to the athletes involved, "fairness" becomes more important.

So it seems you should select the first group on all known form: the ones with a chance of podiuming, toptenning or whatever nonword is today's target. Then the remaining places should be filled as fairly and transparently as possible. From the top positions in a qualifying race.

[graeme]

By that, I mean, how well have the FCC Champions done in JWOC compared to their teammates?

It's a matter of record - normally they've done better. Look it up ... and then you'll see why its the wrong question

[bewildered]

It's very easy to be misinterpreted on this forum! (and most others)

As the point that Mharky is trying to make is that FCC would be better if it really meant something and that making selection for JWOC part of the "prize" for winning the final is what made it mean something, then, as the current powers that be do not currently operate on that basis, maybe it would be sensible to have some statistics that showed that the winners of the FCC often/usually did well in JWOC?

I happen to agree that selection races are a good thing. I don't agree with pre-selecting the "obviously best" runners on "all known form". This allows a significant degree of wriggle room for selectors to pick who they want. With the current squad system they may be tempted to select within that squad rather than someone outside who performs well in selection races.

Life would be very simple for selectors if the locations for the JK and British Champs races were made based on the terrain that will be used for JWOC or WOC, then those races could be properly used for selection. Otherwise they will have to try to select the best orienteers based on what races are available.

[greywolf]

It's very easy to be misinterpreted on this forum ..... I don't agree with pre-selecting the "obviously best" runners on "all known form". This allows a significant degree of wriggle room for selectors to pick who they want. With the current squad system they may be tempted to select within that squad rather than someone outside who performs well in selection races.

I think you're the one doing the misunderstanding: the point is that you don't need a selection race to pick Scott for WOC; but a selection race can be very useful to determine which of Mharky, Doug T, Hector, Spongey etc* get to join him on the team (because as Graeme says you can usually construct "all known form" to support any choice)

* apologies to anyone who feels slighted by inclusion or omission from this list - i'm not a selector and it was for illustrative purposes only

[Oldman]

.. maybe it would be sensible to have some statistics that showed that the winners of the FCC often/usually did well in JWOC? ...

Only when that person would not otherwise have been selected.

[Sunlit Forres]

This is a bit (but not completely) off topic, but as that's the norm for a Nopesport thread I'm pressing on anyway.

I've never orienteered as a junior, and only have some basic experience of how elite juniors (or seniors for that matter) operate, so please don't confuse me with somebody who knows what he's talking about. This is a genuine 'man in the street' question.

Is it my lack of experience on the subject, or am I not alone in thinking that we sometimes set our expectations too low, and give out the message to juniors that it's OK to settle for second best?

I've just read RC#5 in Compass sport and enjoyed reading about the JWOC. I couldn't help but notice, that while Kirsi Nurmi and Frida Sandberg were taking silver and gold on the long race in their first JWOC, the article praises the GB 'JWOC first-timers' for what look to me to be pretty decent, but hardly breathtaking performances (I nearly used a word instead of the hyphenated one that might have got me in to real trouble).

Please don't pillory me for demeaning what are undoubtedly good performances, or suggest I go to a sports psychologist (or even a sports psychiatrist) for further training. I stand ready to be educated. It's just that in the true British way we always seem to set our expectations too low. Wimbledon won the FA Cup once, so I think we should be telling all our great junior runners that they can go out there and get a medal, first time or not. Why go out in the mindset that we're already off the pace before we pick up the map - let's dream!