Harvester

[Guest]

To Harry and Godders, this isn't choice it's health and safety. It's not safe for a driver to do that distance and time within 24 hours without the night O. Ask the coach companies. There have been some notorious crashes where drivers have fallen asleep. It's fine if you are a couple and are both insured but otherwise there are problems. Flights are great for distance if there is transport available. However prices go up as you get closer to departure and you can't transfer the booking for 'dropouts', it's a captains nightmare getting teams for relays at the best of times, let alone a night event at the other end of the country.
I'm not boohooing I'm stating why numbers are lower. I don't do nights so I'm a wus in Ed's terms. I just support the menfolk who do.

[Godders]

To Harry and Godders, this isn't choice it's health and safety. It's not safe for a driver to do that distance and time within 24 hours without the night O. Ask the coach companies. There have been some notorious crashes where drivers have fallen asleep. It's fine if you are a couple and are both insured but otherwise there are problems. Flights are great for distance if there is transport available. However prices go up as you get closer to departure and you can't transfer the booking for 'dropouts', it's a captains nightmare getting teams for relays at the best of times, let alone a night event at the other end of the country.
I'm not boohooing I'm stating why numbers are lower. I don't do nights so I'm a wus in Ed's terms. I just support the menfolk who do.

In that case holding events in the centre of the country is OK for you but sod everyone else who has to travel from Scotland, south-west England etc?

[Guest]

Wrong I'm the one that said that that would be too much pressure for organisers etc. I said that if it moves round you get a variety of teams but never the best or same teams year to year. C'est la vie, it's down to geography. It's why not everyone went to the British Champs this year, and not everyone will go in a couple of years time or whenever it is next in Scotland.

[Stodgetta]

Numbers were much higher in the early 90s and earlier when the competition was held all over the place - I remember one on Star Posts in the mid 90s with what felt like hundreds of teams.

We were talking about it in the pub last night (with members of 2 or 3 clubs present, a cross section of ages), and decided the end of A, B & C courses may have precipitated the decline.

From memory, the A course used to be for the "elite" teams, the B for the "club" teams and the C for the junior/handicap etc teams. Then the A & B were combined, so Club teams had to compete up against the elites (a bit like saying no Mens Short Open at JK, you'll have to run JK Trophy or the Ad Hoc), and the C became the B.

At the moment, as I understand it, it is impossible to run the B to win it outright - there's a prize for the first handicap/female/junior team, but no prize for the winner. That seems crazy.

I know winning isn't everything, but being completely out of your depth against elite teams, or non-comp before you even start is not much of a choice for alot of people. Harvester used to be the one time of year many people would dust off the headtorches and get out there at night to run for the club and have some banter.

I may be way off track, but that was the conclusion of our discussion - bring back the B course (or should that be the C course)...

[Boo]

I'm firmly in the "move it round the country" camp - I enjoy competing in different parts and are prepared to travel to get to a class area. I'd hate it if we were constantly going to the same types of area in the centre of the country - much rather a long drive to Penhale or a trip up to Scotland. HALO did a great job this year, and I thoroughly enjoyed it, but I'm not sure I'd be so excited about the prospect of the event returning to a similar style area in 2006. And before you say it, I am no elite orienteer...!

And why the assumption that everyone who goes is going to drive there by themselves? If you can't organise coaches or minibuses, it's easy to car share! Putting another driver on the insurance for a weekend is pretty minimal cost-wise, and it's far more sociable than going up by yourself. We all car shared up the Harvester last weekend and it was great to have the opportunity to get to know other club members.

[harry]

Yeah that's a good point Graeme about Tio Mila being central and SM moving around. And for a lot of teams it's not too far to travel other teams travel huge distances but then it's a great event.

In response to Stogetta I don't know why people are thinking like that. If teams thought "oh we've no chance against the likes of Halden we won't bother with tio Mila" it wouldn't be the event it is. Hundreds of teams take part and finish many hours after the winner. Surely in a team event like this it really doesn't matter where you finish as long as you have fun doing it. But yeah overall and at the sharp end it's an elite relay

With the make-up of most British clubs (lots of older people, not that many elites, quite a few juniors) a format more like the 25manna - but maybe 11-14ish-manna would attract a lot more teams. Having kids legs, women's legs and one or two elite legs would really find the best overall club. maybe someone could have a look at the BOF membership data and come up with the perfect combination and make the rules up from that!

I know they have this already in Scotland. Why don't the Englich clubs come and check it out?!

[brooner]

At the moment, as I understand it, it is impossible to run the B to win it outright - there's a prize for the first handicap/female/junior team, but no prize for the winner. That seems crazy.

yup, i don't think we even got a mention let alone a prize

[Stodgetta]

Surely in a team event like this it really doesn't matter where you finish as long as you have fun doing it

It's not that so much as finding people willing to run the longer legs, and having enough willing runners to make up the bigger teams. Yes it can be fun even if you are miles down, but running 2 hour plus legs at night may not be for everybody.

I was just summarising a long discussion between Harvester veterans wondering why the competition was so much smaller than it used to be, and why they didn't run any more. Telling them their personal views are wrong isn't likely to get them back competing again in the Harvester, listening to their opinions may do.

[RJ]

The perfect situation would certainly be a move around the whole country for these events Boo. And all those who went to the Harvester this year would probably agree with you....

The problem is you have to convince another 350 people to come as well if the event is going to survive in the long term. There is plenty of variety of terrain within EMOA/WMOA/YHOA/NWOA to give everyone a different experience year on year. Then when the sport has grown again (give it 5/10 years) we can move to more distant parts.

I think we need to concentrate on a survival strategy, and activate it soon rather than when demise is staring you in the face. We are going to face many crises over the coming years when uncomfortable decisions have to be taken. JK2007 could be a major one..... a warning to us all!!

[Supersaint]

I think the distance is crucial because if you've been running overnight the journey back is not ideal and if it is a distance there is a great risk of tiredness affecting the driver.
This year I did not travel and my other half did drive. The three hour journey put off a number of regular Harvester people from our club. The way back he had to stop for three breaks to ensure he didn't sleep at the wheel.
Although they'd love to compete in Scotland I guess it will be even harder to get a team as that would be 4/4.5 hours driving each way. That is too much in a 24 hour period for most sane fully awake drivers.
Flights might be possible if cheap ones available however, if vehicle hire is added on it might make it too much.

HOcolite

Perhaps this is one reason why the timing of the event should be dealt with. As was suggested earlier in this thread, having an early evening start on Saturday would allow people time to get to (almost) anywhere in the country, and with the relay finishing by midnight, it would not be such a horrendous journey for those who aren't able to share driving/coaches. For all those who don't like late nights, request an early leg. If you think that this would take up an entire weekend, doesn't it do that already?

[seabird]

Currently the slower teams at least have the larger percentage of their runners running in the daylight.

If we adopted the earlier daylight start, the Elite teams may finish without the need for a torch, whilst the slower teams have a far geater number of their runners running in the dark, with the likely consequence that the time gap between fastest and slowest becomes even greater.

Working on the basis of the elite teams having around 66% of their running time in the dark, with everyone else proportionally less seems to me a wise arrangement which should be maintained.

[Guest]

It would be more like 24 hours for me to get to Loch Vaa... but I would seriously consider going to the Harvester there. It would take the same time to get to the Midlands... and I wouldn't even consider going to the Harvester there...

Ed

[rocky]

re tiomila not moving around: tiomila is organised by the tiomilaføreningen, an association of stockholm area clubs. it basically doesn´t move round sweden in teh same way that the scottish six-day doesn´t move around britain because it´s organised by the 6day company.

i think rj is being overly pessimistic: i don´t think the future of the harvester is intrinsically linked with the future of bof/orienteering in gbr. looks to me as if the turnout has been constant for the last few years, and halo did a great job organising this year with pretty minimal resources and a limited time scale.

it would be amazing if the uk was like scandy and we could all get together and get coaches from our abodes to major events. next friday i´ll be getting on a bus from oslo to jukola in finland. there will b emaybe 10 guys from my club amoungst the 200ish others on a convoy of coaches. the banter will be rare and it will be a 24hr+ trip to get to the race, and then they soak up jukola for 18 hours, turn around and go home.

but britain is never going to work like that, maybe 2-3 clubs will have the initiative or inclination to get a coach trip together but i can´t see most clubs getting that. maybe it could be coordinated by regions. maybe thats pressure on volunteers in regions.

i mostly run the harvester because its in the ukrl which for me, as a passionate member of an elite-level club is a big thing - i think i´m saying that if it wasnt in the ukrl i wouldn´t give two hoots! i care about being part of my club in a way that i feel many brits don´t.

an improvement in club spirit and making events like the harvester a prestigious chance to represent your club would do a great deal to save british orienteering... its been shown elsewhere that the format of standalone relays can work,

if only the uk were more like scandinavia.....

[Guest]

I understand what Rocky is saying about being proud to run for your club. As a member of an 'elite' team, I committed myself to running the Harvester early before I knew whether my elite team mates would be available. When we realised that we weren't going to be able to put an elite team together it was my idea to concede defeat and enter an Ad Hoc team on the A course, simply because I (a) love running relays, (b) love running at the Harvester and (c) love running for my club!
Why can't there be more people in the UK with this attitude. It would make our relay events much more fun, and develop a better sense of competition as well!

[awk]

Interesting what stodgetta said about the decline coming when courses were merged......

the reason they were merged was because numbers had crashed, especially in the A class. Feedback indicated that one of the reasons they had crashed was because there were too many courses, and not enough focus. Now it's the opposite? Hmmmm. Personally, I feel the demise started when a second class was introduced, and the mixture of legs on the A class was reduced (the famous short night leg for instance).

The fact is that the Harvester is a specialist relay. You only have to look at the numbers of people prepared to do individual night events to realise why the numbers are small. I suspect (but don't know) that the decline in participation has simply paralleled the decline in 20-40s, an age group with more get up and go, less family commitments etc. etc. Certainly, in the days when I took part regularly, the core of my club's teams were this age group, with a few extra from other age classes, mostly filling the short night leg position etc.

I know Pillar is fast and flat, but there just aren't sufficient people prepared to run 9k+ at night nowadays. It doesn't matter where you put it on, how many classes you have, or what time of night it is run. The issue, if you want to increase numbers, is far more fundamental, and I reckon (with one caveat below) the situation is about as good as it will get with the format - and if you change the format, do you change the spirit of the event?

I would totally reject Hocolite's suggestion on merging PPR and Harvester for the reasons already stated (and no way would I be prepared to manage a team based on camping, unless a big central marquee or similar was provided). In fact, I would reckon that one of the (perhaps lesser) problems Harvester has is that so many 16-18s are effectively excluded by the scheduling.

As a more positive note to finish on: what if the 9k legs on laps 1 and 4 had been split in half with a return to the changeover - with clubs being allowed to run either one runner on both halves, or other runners on the second half? Allows those who don't want to run longer distances to take part, but at the same time gives the bigger guns something to get their teeth into? Just a thought.