Harvester 2011

[RJ]

I think I will stand by my original comment that the event is TOO difficult/tough for the average orienteer. It is obvious from many comments, probably from those who took part, that they disagree in part. On reflection I would add that perhaps the event, the Harvester Relay, shouldn't be made easier; there are thirty teams that are prepared to participate. But I doubt the event will attract any more as it is. Having a parallel event with shorter and faster courses may work, or having another similar event run at another time of the year.

But basically, there are only so many, it would appear, who wish to do the event. I think this is purely a reflection on the number of orienteers in the country. Triple the number of active orienteers and I would suggest the event would increase in a similar fashion.

I am of the opinion that we, as a sport, spend too much time working on the top end of the event programme. We try to maintain too many 'national' events, and suffer because there aren't the participants to make them financially viable. IMO we need to spend a serious amount of time working on the level C and D events and increase participation locally rather than 'wasting' (in a way) a lot of effort and intellectual energy on these major events. However, I'm struggling to think which ones we would keep.... and which ones we should let go!!

[Miner]

Does anyone know who was taking photos of the B relay start?

[frog]

I like yteds idea and also support the idea of only having a few relay options so more people are doing a similar course, eg short medium and long TD5 relay teams and a mixture of TD3 and 4 legs for the juniors/ novices.

[IanD]

I am of the opinion that we, as a sport, spend too much time working on the top end of the event programme. We try to maintain too many 'national' events, and suffer because there aren't the participants to make them financially viable.

A valid point of view, but let me put a counter-argument.

It's the top-end events which keep me interested. And I want them spread throughout the year, not just clustered in April and May. While I am interested in the sport, I will do level C & D events too, indeed many more of those than A & B. But thin out the top-end too much, and I may leave the sport altogether.

[awk]

Another option is to do as some long distance relays do and mass start the second lap runners as soon as the first lap 1 runner finishes, and so on for each lap.

I have to admit, I'd not be particularly interested in running if it was this format.

[awk]

IMO we need to spend a serious amount of time working on the level C and D events and increase participation locally rather than 'wasting' (in a way) a lot of effort and intellectual energy on these major events. However, I'm struggling to think which ones we would keep.... and which ones we should let go!!

We were discussing the club event programme earlier tonight at a post-race social, and were generally agreed that we couldn't really sustain any more level C/D events than we organise at present - so don't think getting rid of some of the level A events would make any difference to us at all.

[RJ]

...... were generally agreed that we couldn't really sustain any more level C/D events than we organise at present......

That would appear to be a negative response to the thrust of my posting.....

IMO we need to spend a serious amount of time working on the level C and D events and increase participation locally rather than 'wasting' (in a way) a lot of effort and intellectual energy on these major events.

However, having a look at the BOF records of events planned by various clubs.... would you believe that AIRE are the second most prolific club so far this year, with a total of 50 events (37D, 10C and 3B)...... with WCOC leading the way with 54 events (49D, 4C and 1B).

So, AIRE and WCOC are leading the way!!!! And, it is the way forward. Build your local club base, increase participation locally and the sport will have a positive future. Lots of clubs are staging level D events.... just not as many as the sport really needs. IMO a person living within ten miles of a club should be able to orienteer once a week with that club at an informal event.

[graeme]

So, AIRE and WCOC are leading the way!!!!

That's a great effort! How much have your memberships gone up as a result?

Back on the Harvester, I think the "staying up all night" is an issue. I'm willing to give up a night's sleep for a "big adventure" sort of thing (Jukola, BGR), but not for something which is just another dumbed down orienteering event which most of the the top athletes and some of the fastest clubs can't be bothered with.

Starting at night has the advantage that if it goes horribly wrong for your team, you end up with more daytime. Finishing at 11 is fine for the winners, but then you have the slower teams trailing in in the wee small hours.

I like any idea which limits the potential loss for a single bad/slow run (first of three runners back/mini mass starts). The idea of "keeping teammates hanging around" always comes up as a reason not to do relays. Another attraction of Jukola is that most people know exactly when they're going to start (leg 1 or mini-mass start).

And I like the idea of (essentially) having two relays, one in the day, then another at night. But having put them both on, it seems odd to only allow people to run in one or the other. Maybe I'm missing something ?

How about a weekend of events for teams of 4?

[Adrian]

I think I will stand by my original comment that the event is TOO difficult/tough for the average orienteer. It is obvious from many comments, probably from those who took part, that they disagree in part. On reflection I would add that perhaps the event, the Harvester Relay, shouldn't be made easier; there are thirty teams that are prepared to participate. But I doubt the event will attract any more as it is.

Speaking as an average orienteer, I don't think the Harvester should be dumbed down. Although most weeks I take part in relatively easy events, I do enjoy a challenge from time to time, and I think most orienteers, average or not, have a similar opinion.

I disagree that the Harvester can't get any bigger. It got bigger this year, so why can't it get bigger next year, and the year after that? Most orienteers haven't tried night-O or O-relays, but when they do they usually like it. There's a reason that the Tiomila and the Jukola are so huge, and that's that they're fantastic events with a great format. As more and more people cotton on to this, participation at the Harvester will increase.

[Ravinous]

Last year, GBR had 8 Venla (women) and 11 Jukola teams consisting completely of British runners (109 people) and I estimate another 30 odd Brits were present running for foreign clubs. Last years Jukola was on some of the hardest terrain you can get at a Jukola. You could argue that it was TOO hard for half the Brits there!
The logistics of getting to Jukola are much harder and more costly than the Harvester. Jukola still had 1560 odd teams of 7, the majority of whom fall into RJs category of it being TOO hard for them. But they still go. Why? Because it is a challenge and they want to be there and a part of it, and get round.
I dont think it is a problem therefore if the Harvester is TOO hard for 'the average orienteer' - a view which I dont necessarily agree with. What actually does 'TOO hard' mean? What is average? Is being 250% of the winners time too hard for them or are they just slow and make mistakes?
RJ needs to go to Jukola and/or TioMila and see for himself that TOO hard should not and doesnt put people off.
Running at night and in Eccy Woods (Eridge Park last year, etc.) is no big deal! The more of an 'issue' you make of it, especially with your newbies, the more they will fear it. It's fun, challenging, adventurous. You have to take even more safe routes to get it right, etc etc. If you make people feel that Night O/Harvesters is part of the annual programme and given encouragement, more will came forward. Local informal Night O through the winter (like some clubs offer) will help.
It was good to see a SAX member at this years Harvester who joined Saxons after having done 7 events - all of which were in the dark - at the Kent Night Cup. She had never orienteered in the daylight before signing up to the club! Maybe she thought in the beginning O was only ever done in the dark!?!

[AndyC]

Ravinous -If you dress like your Avatar isn't every orienteeering event in the dark?

[awk]

So, AIRE and WCOC are leading the way!!!!

That's a great effort! How much have your memberships gone up as a result?

Not my quote: I wasn't claiming Aire were leading the way, simply that we were pretty much at full capacity. We are, after all, a big city based club - one could argue that we should be putting on a lot of events compared to many others.

In answer to your question - whilst I can't quote chapter and verse on the stats, our feelings are that, yes, our membershp has gone up as a result. What is particularly interesting (for us at least) is how different types of events attract completely different groups of people. In particular, I've noted on another thread before now that our midweek events (particularly the winter street events) attract a large proportion of M/W21s - considerably more than we see at the weekends as they are largely people who are doing other things then (climbing, running etc).

Ravinous - too hard means that people perceive it as such. As I said earlier in the thread, that's not necessarily a problem, we just have to recognise the impact that this might create, and I'm another one who would not want to see it dumbed down. i still think Hocolite's idea is the best I've seen so far that would prevent that, but still make it more accessible (if that is what is wanted/needed). But on the other hand, adrian has a point, in that this year was bigger so why not next year bigger again. I think location will be critical though.

[RJ]

I take your point Ravinous... however, Jukola/Venla have the same sort of 'image' as perhaps the Great North Run and the London Marathon have. Something that you will perhaps do ONCE before you die!! You might enjoy road running but your local 10k is what you like doing as a regular thing and then the London Marathon if you prepare yourself, perhaps for next year.

[afterthought]

One other possible change is to copy the Peter Palmer and start later, otherwise pretty much as now. The later in the year it is the later it can start.

The guidelines say two-thirds of the winning team's run is in the dark, but it could be a lesser fraction suits our ever older GB orienteering population (a better night's sleep has been mentioned here a few times) and would also be more in line with the big Scandinavian relays? It might be a fairly neutral change in terms of the top teams' perception of the event (i.e not seen as dumbing down provided winning times are as now) but allow more people to feel up to taking on the hardest team event in British Orienteering (apart from the Peter Palmer.)

By the way Tim Smith's video of the 'A' start ( viewtopic.php?f=1&t=12340&st=0&sk=t&sd=a&start=60#p133082 ) and the matching GPS ( http://www.tulospalvelu.fi/gps/ )go together well I think.

[Gross]

The guidelines say two-thirds of the winning team's run is in the dark, but it could be a lesser fraction suits our ever older GB orienteering population (a better night's sleep has been mentioned here a few times) and would also be more in line with the big Scandinavian relays?

Just been up above the Polar Circle & reminded me of Jukola in 1994 or 5 (can't remember which) that was about 100km north of the PC.... no 'night' running... even on legs 1 & 2...

So Harvester will never duplicate the conditions of Jukola where it's held in the north & even in Helsinki region it's not dark for long...

Harvester should not even start using Jukola as a comparison... they are 2 very different competitions