Harvesters

[Mrs H]

According to the BOF web site there are no viable offers to stage next year's Harvesters.

Anyone any ideas on how this event could be made more attractive to put on - obviously it is tricky requiring camping/parking in the assembly field with start/finish all close together and a big commitment from volunteers overnight.

Speaking as someone who enjoys the event but finds it incredibly difficult to get up in the middle of the night and run (low blood pressure) - I was interested to see RR staged it as an evening into night event instead of night into day event which could open up the time of year when it could be held (earlier nights) I wasn't there and wondered how other people thought it compared.

[SeanC]

Part of the problem must be the economics.

Chiltern Challenge 2008: approx 550 competitors
Harvesters 2008 in the Chilterns: approx 350 competitors.

The entry fee was £10 per person at the Harvesters, wasn't it? About the same as a regional.

So clubs get more money if they put on a regional event, and they don't have to persuade their helpers to work in the middle of the night.

Ideally this needs to be reversed. Some combination of the following might work:

a) Increase fees for Harvesters
b) Increase levies for all events and use some of the levies to subsidise the Harvesters
c) Employ professional organisers for the Harvesters, which will need b).

Harvester orienteers wont like a), non-harvester orienteers wont like b or c.

I know it's not just about money, organising the Harvesters might be more rewarding / more of a challenge.than a regional and appeal to some because of this. I hope there's another one.

[graeme]

I was interested to see RR staged it as an evening into night event instead of night into day event which could open up the time of year when it could be held

Well, evening into night back into day. We had to ask nicely to be allowed to do this, but because there's not a lot of darkness in Scotland in June, the case was accepted. Jukola is sometimes the same.

The money issue was straightforward: RR just ran another event on the same area the next day!

[SeanC]

Good point Graeme.

Another possibility then, stage the event when the nights are a bit longer. Start it later, finish it later. Have a level 2 event in the morning for non-harvester punters using the same maps/courses, starting as the last leg runners are going off. Or would it be too cold in October/April to be hanging around at 4 in the morning?

[Mrs H]

Well my thinking was that it might be better to start it earlier and finish it earlier - so your volunteers and orienteers are not up all night and are all ready to go the next day along with the non-Harvester punters - there would of course be those who'd claim an unfair advantage for those out the previous night but the exhaustion would counter act that in my opinion - and i remember doing the British nights in Northumberland one year and not being able to find a control the next day that I had no problem with the previous night

[SeanC]

That makes sense. However if you're in a slow team day leg runners might find themselves running night legs unless there were a lot of mini-mass starts, this might deter some teams. Also there's something special about orienteering as the sun rises, but maybe not so special on a cold and wet October morning.

[King Penguin]

How did those that attended this year feel about having the JOK Chasing Sprint nearby on the Saturday ?

[Oldman]

As someone who in many years of orienteering has never taken part in the Harvester, can I suggest some other points?

1. When has there ever been publicity to promote the event and why it would be enjoyable to participants? [I regard it as night orienteering which I don't do because I'm afraid of injury. It also looks a bit geeky to the uninitiated.].

2. I have always assumed participation meant overnight camping. I hate camping, hence no interest to me. Am I right?

3. What exactly is the point of the competition? Is it a relay, is it night orienteering? why teams of 7 (or whatever it is)? Are multi-club teams allowed as getting 7 or multiples of 7 from one club is often awkward?

I would certainly object to subsidising the event: promote it better, solve costs issues as earlier posts suggest, or scrap it if not enough people want it!

[IanD]

I like the Harvester, it's one of my favourite events. Unfortunately it is often difficult to get a full team from my club when it's not local to us.

To pick up a few of the points raised above

- it is a relay. The main race is for teams of seven, there's also one for teams of five. There are various open and handicap classes.

- it's not exclusively a night event. The leading teams should run roughly 2/3rds in the dark, 1/3rd in daylight. Thus even for them, at least two of the seven people run during the day.

- starting in the night means that the weaker teams run proportionately more in daylight. For this reason, I would be opposed to starting in the day and ending in the night, as this would make it tougher for the weaker teams than the stronger ones.

- the social atmosphere is probably best appreciated by those staying on site. But it's not essential. So two alternatives to camping are (1) stay up all night (2) find some accommodation that you can leave and/or return to in the middle of the night, e.g. a Travelodge. Or your own home if close enough.

- personally I won't do another event on the Saturday before the Harvester, so I missed this year's JOK sprint. This is because I'm old and feeble and need to conserve my strength for a long night leg.

- I think it should be at a warm time of year with the best possible chance of good weather; May and June good, October bad!

- what about allowing competitive teams to be drawn for a wider group than just a single club? Perhaps regional teams? Perhaps smaller clubs (possibly using the CompassSport Cup/Trophy definition) could put in a joint competitive team?

- I can appreciate that the word "subsidy" raises hackles. But what about making the event levy-free? It is an event for which many competitors will travel a long distance, so the costs to most competitors are already high. And if making levy-free makes the difference between the event happening and not happening, it won't even make any difference to the total levy income?

- the hardest question to answer is "what is the point"? It's a unique event, with a long tradition, and it only happens once a year. I think the world would be a poorer place without it.

[Barny of Blandford]

The biggest problem is this part of the world is our wonderful 'ground nesting birds'.
March to August inclusive is virtually now a non-starter.
Only areas that can get round that problem are military areas that do not have quite as many restrictions.
Many of our areas are now becoming more and more winter orienteering only in the months of September to February.
I also think unfortunately that the future will be sprint O and parkO and small area events during the 'closed' season
The Scandavians close down for winter - we close down for summer (and not just because of the bracken)

[Mrs H]

Gosh Barney - you haven't had a sneak preview of my next CS article have you? Should hit the streets next week with any luck.

but these problems are not peculiar to the Harvester - i take your points Ian and agree it is a great event - Oldman doesn't know what he's missing - I'll just have to struggle with my blood pressure - I'm just trying to think of ways to make it more popular to take part in and more attractive to host.

Oh, and.... there's camping and there's camping

[HOCOLITE]

If I hadn't retired this year I think I would have been out all of the night and a fair deal of the day. Like oldman I wasn't keen on night O. However I don't like to let a team down even if I'm not super competitive so I ended up doing a Harvester a number of years ago. As it happened my dawn leg was daylight as it was again last year. I now do a bit of night O but am happier if it is score and just for my own satisfaction. My biggest grievance with the harvester is that the legs are usually too long for womens teams on the B relay. The short leg is low technically and often not at night so a disappointment to good but aging lady night orienteers. If you look at the stats very few ladies take part and (maybe thanks to me in some cases) even less finish the relay.
To link a number of current threads on this forum and banter why not make the B course a score. The team has to get a required number of controls but can decide how they get them. Maybe Harris style.

[NeilC]

The Harvester guidelines basically quote the number of laps and the overall winning times so clubs can vary the individual lap lengths.

I too love the Harvester but as a club captain know how hard it can be to enthuse more than a teams-worth to take part. The Neighbouring Club Alliance still exists so clubs can join forces if they wish.

Like IanD I was concerned about running both the JOK sprint and the Harvester so close together, especially since I was running first lap at the latter, but I also think that the JOK event is a great one and so did both. Having a quality event on the Saturday would certainly make a "Harvester Weekend" more appealing, particular if the Sat event was of a sprint/urban/middle nature. In contrast there is no way that I would want to run the day after the Harvester.

[mike g]

From JOK's point of view combining the Chasing Sprint with the Harvester worked well; it boosted our entry and made for a good weekend. Although some people gave the Chasing Sprint a miss to save themselves for the Harvester, our impression was that they were outnumbered by people who were attracted by the package of both events. We would consider doing the same again in future - though not next year when the Chasing Sprint will be on Sat 21st Feb before the Burnham Beeches national event.

The original plan before permission fell through was to have both events on Hambleden. That was primarily to make the Harvester financially viable on Hambleden, where land access would have been expensive. But I felt it worked out better that we ended up using separate areas near to each other, as it avoided either event constraining the planning of the other.

[JennyJ]

I think that purely from a participation point of view starting the Harvester earlier and having a beer tent type place for a 'party' afterwards would surely boost numbers. If the early legs are in the daylight (and less technical?) this would also mean you could be certain that your less confident competitors didn't have to run at night.
Jukola and Tio Mila work because they are such massive events and have all the facilities, and even then the women's race is in the daylight in any case!